Wolfspider
Explorer
You're right, my bad. One is censorship, and the other is just the support of or desire for censorship. Or perhaps the desire that WotC would self-censor in order to avoid potential public outcry over the publication of the book.
Book of Vile Darkness
- Thread starter Son_of_Thunder
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You're right, my bad. One is censorship, and the other is just the support of or desire for censorship. Or perhaps the desire that WotC would self-censor in order to avoid potential public outcry over the publication of the book.
Wolfspider
Explorer
That was weird.
Sorry, double post.
Sorry, double post.
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Khan the Warlord
First Post
Joshua Dyal said:
You're 100% correct -- it is truly far from censorship.
When one takes into account that we know SQUAT about the content of the book (the specifics, anyway), it is downright...
IDIOTIC.
Hmm... I'm getting too passionate about this already and I'm barely into my reply.
I believe in the integrity and common sense of Monte Cook. I believe in Mr. Cook's game design. I believe in the standards set forth by Monte Cook and his former employers.
What I don't believe, is unfounded whining from a group of people that dare to cast stones at a man that writes a tome with questionable themes that best of all -- NO ONE HAS EVEN READ YET!
Damnit, my temper is flaring, my common sense is quickly depleting, so before I open my mouth in a fashion that various people I work for may not approve of, I guess I'll just finish.
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NeghVar
First Post
Wolfspider,
You are 100% on target! We the consumers should be the final censor.
Let me as an adult make the decision to buy or not buy BoVD. I think everyone here should wait until it shows up at their FLGS and flip through it, before making sweeping judgements.
How many of you whined this much about novels by Robert Howard, Stephen King, Dennis McKiernan, or any other authors that had "mature" themes in them?
Why not condemn S&SS for having a pentagram on a rulebook (read as Relics & Rituals)? Let's dredge up the Avalanche Press covers issue again! Let's beatup on the "immature" content in Liber Beastarius again (which I playtested).
I personally want to buy BoVD for two reasons, because I like the idea of "Mature Themed" books and I have enjoyed everything Monte has contributed to D&D and the gaming industry.
Later!
You are 100% on target! We the consumers should be the final censor.
Let me as an adult make the decision to buy or not buy BoVD. I think everyone here should wait until it shows up at their FLGS and flip through it, before making sweeping judgements.
How many of you whined this much about novels by Robert Howard, Stephen King, Dennis McKiernan, or any other authors that had "mature" themes in them?
Why not condemn S&SS for having a pentagram on a rulebook (read as Relics & Rituals)? Let's dredge up the Avalanche Press covers issue again! Let's beatup on the "immature" content in Liber Beastarius again (which I playtested).
I personally want to buy BoVD for two reasons, because I like the idea of "Mature Themed" books and I have enjoyed everything Monte has contributed to D&D and the gaming industry.
Later!
Furn_Darkside
First Post
Joshua Dyal said:
So.. I got my pitchfork and torch for.. nothing? *sigh*
Fine.
FD
Kenjib and others have missed the point.
Tolkien doesn't describe the corruption in graphic terms. He doesn't say 'to get orcs you sodomize elves and then scoop out their brains and replace them with the blood of a slain innocent.'
PrCs. Fine. A ringwraith would have 'wraith powers.' but that's not the point. The mechanics I'm refering to a re about other things that are not necessary to the story. Even Michael Moorcock never went into excruciating detail of Dr. Jests techniques, for instance, merely enough to imply that being his victim was a horror beyond belief. Do you need to know the exact powers you get from vile acts and the dice mechanic to make sure you did the vile act correctly? Ring wraiths are said by Tolkien to be corrupted by their greed and the effect of the one ring. Not 'they sacrificed 100 virgins after sodomizing them and biting off their nipples, because that's how it's done.'
And, Furn, I thought you were being civil, but I guess I was mistaken. How do you know that I haven't written of this subject to Dragon and WOTC? You asked what I planned to accomplish here, and I told you. And, no, I don't believe in censorship (that's how we lost the New Adventures of Mighty Mouse), just a clearly defined line between the generic fantasy RPG of D&D and the 'mature' games like Vampire and certain d20 products. Notice that I haven't started a thread about Green Ronin? Because it's not a visible and persistent symbol of the RPG hobby.
For those who have refused to read back a few pages, I'll recap my points in a condensed format:
D&D is a high profile example of RPGs. It's market is larger than university kids and old D&D vets. Putting the D&D Logo on BoVD will damage the family oriented aspects of roleplaying and discourage parents from allowing their children, a vital source of new players, to participate. D&D is not mainstream enough to survive an attack by the media similar to the one aimed at computer games after Columbine. My belief that the release of this book is a marketing ploy is not a conspiracy theory, but the professional opinion of a Marketing person. History is full of examples of good things gone to pot over bad publicity (Mighty Mouse). Kenzer & Company's book is a good example of the book your looking for without all of the needless graphic exposition. A good storyteller doesn't need such exposition in the first place to create a mood.
Tolkien doesn't describe the corruption in graphic terms. He doesn't say 'to get orcs you sodomize elves and then scoop out their brains and replace them with the blood of a slain innocent.'
PrCs. Fine. A ringwraith would have 'wraith powers.' but that's not the point. The mechanics I'm refering to a re about other things that are not necessary to the story. Even Michael Moorcock never went into excruciating detail of Dr. Jests techniques, for instance, merely enough to imply that being his victim was a horror beyond belief. Do you need to know the exact powers you get from vile acts and the dice mechanic to make sure you did the vile act correctly? Ring wraiths are said by Tolkien to be corrupted by their greed and the effect of the one ring. Not 'they sacrificed 100 virgins after sodomizing them and biting off their nipples, because that's how it's done.'
And, Furn, I thought you were being civil, but I guess I was mistaken. How do you know that I haven't written of this subject to Dragon and WOTC? You asked what I planned to accomplish here, and I told you. And, no, I don't believe in censorship (that's how we lost the New Adventures of Mighty Mouse), just a clearly defined line between the generic fantasy RPG of D&D and the 'mature' games like Vampire and certain d20 products. Notice that I haven't started a thread about Green Ronin? Because it's not a visible and persistent symbol of the RPG hobby.
For those who have refused to read back a few pages, I'll recap my points in a condensed format:
D&D is a high profile example of RPGs. It's market is larger than university kids and old D&D vets. Putting the D&D Logo on BoVD will damage the family oriented aspects of roleplaying and discourage parents from allowing their children, a vital source of new players, to participate. D&D is not mainstream enough to survive an attack by the media similar to the one aimed at computer games after Columbine. My belief that the release of this book is a marketing ploy is not a conspiracy theory, but the professional opinion of a Marketing person. History is full of examples of good things gone to pot over bad publicity (Mighty Mouse). Kenzer & Company's book is a good example of the book your looking for without all of the needless graphic exposition. A good storyteller doesn't need such exposition in the first place to create a mood.
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Son_of_Thunder
Explorer
Holy Smokes! What Fun!
Greetings all,
It was me you quoted. I said Monte had an unhealthy fascination with evil, but that's just my opinion of course.
On a related note. Issue #300 of Dragon is supposed to have a sealed section in it to go along with the Book of Vile Darkness. Why would it need to be sealed? Is it just a marketing ploy? I wonder. In an upcoming edition of Dungeon there is supposed to be a sealed portion of the magazine with an adventure within. Why?
Son of Thunder
Greetings all,
It was me you quoted. I said Monte had an unhealthy fascination with evil, but that's just my opinion of course.
On a related note. Issue #300 of Dragon is supposed to have a sealed section in it to go along with the Book of Vile Darkness. Why would it need to be sealed? Is it just a marketing ploy? I wonder. In an upcoming edition of Dungeon there is supposed to be a sealed portion of the magazine with an adventure within. Why?
Son of Thunder
Khan the Warlord
First Post
NeghVar said:
NeghVar, does it hurt to be so right?
Face it everyone: no amount of whine nor worry will stop this book from seeing print. Nothing you people say or do at these forums or countless others will be able to force WotC to change their minds about a book that is slated for release THIS SOON.
Nothing.
Nada.
So basically, knowing that you're powerless in this regard, why not cease the worried discussions until AFTER one of you has the book and actually turn out to be so shocked and dismayed by the content inside.
OK?
Pretty please?
Sugar on top?
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Tiefling
First Post
Nathanael said:
You go do that in your game. Meanwhile, I'll have rules for how these things work in my game, and they'll be drawn from the BoVD, and if you don't like that, don't play in my game. Meanwhile, shut the hell up about how I shouldn't use a book in my game because you don't use it, and therefore it shouldn't be published.
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