Books and Knowledge

[XeviatTranion]

PS: Alternately, you could develop experience point costs and time for gaining certain things. Make prices for ability scores and skills; ability scores should cost four times as much as skills since they grant bonuses to several skills and other abilities, while a skill only grants a bonus to itself.

Then, when a character is practicing, studying, or doing what not, they spend an allotted time practicing and then pay a number of experience points.

Since characters gain more XP each level as they increase in levels, make the costs scale depending on how high the ability score/skill currently is. Increasing a strength of 6 to 7 is easier than increasing a strength of 18 to 19; just like learning the basics of a skill (rank 1) is easier than mastering it (rank 10?)

PPS: Another idea is to not grant charaters all of their abilities upon level up. Sure, they gain X skill points at a level up, but their training dictates where it goes. Unless they're putting points into something odd, it's reasonable that they can increase the points automatically; but if a character in the desert wants swim ranks, they have to train. If an illiterate person wants to learn to read, they have to train. If a character who has spent no time in a dungeon or underground wants to pick up knowledge (dungeonering), they need to read about it or experience it. This would probably be the easiest thing to impliment.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

OK. A little more feedback, a little more changes.....

Ouch, I think I'm getting a migraine. The mechanics are starting to hurt my head.

 

[Cabral]

And while the books can be passed around, I don't think that hurts too much. To me the real cost of this is the time required. I'd see it as similar to crafting an item. You can't be doing other stuff while learning this. So really I think this might hurt the crafters, not nessecarily the rogues.

So allow other activities, even allow spending half-days on it (so it takes twice as long) but the student should probably be fatigued at the end of his studies. (thus offering an evil-gm ambush oppurtunity )

Assuming 5 is the maximum rank you can get from the book, it's also where balance issues really come in since that is when you gain synergy bonuses. From my experience in the physics department (proud holder of Knowledge(Physics): 1 ), I would say the later ranks would require multiple books. So how about this: cost is (Book rank)^2 x 50 gp and a number of days of study equal to gp price / 10 (if interupted, make a DC 15 concentration check to resume).
so rank 1: 50 gp
2: 200 gp
3: 450 gp
4: 800 gp
5: 1,250 gp
You can only read a book (or book sets) one rank higher than the number of ranks you already possess in that skill.

The DC to absorb the knowledge of the book is 15+the book's rank, +4 if it would put you over you skill cap in that skill.

The time requirement seems too harsh, but I like the gp costs ...

Oh, btw, my wife's a bibliophile, yoink

 

[Angel Tarragon]

My head thanks you Cabral. That clearly makes sense.

 

[General Barron]

I totally don't like this idea. I'm not trying to be offensive, but it just doesn't make any sense with the existing DnD method of character improvement. Currently, your character only improves when he gains a level. Then he improves in a whole bunch of different stuff. This is how a class system works (which I'm actually not a fan of).

Bought equipment, such as armor, magic items, etc only adds a bonus to character skills or abilities; but not a permanent increase that lasts even after the item is gone.

I'm all for being able to buy a book (or collection of books) that would give you a +1/+2 circumstance bonus to knowledge checks. But any item that permanently increases a skill or ability should be magical and very rare/expensive.

If you have a problem with the way characters instantly gain skills, then you should look into some sort of training system, where characters have to spend time & money to gain their new abilities after each level. For example, after gaining a level, a character can spend X number of weeks in a library, and then can increase their knowledge skills.

Alternatively, if you want characters to be able to gain skill without having to kill stuff (a noble goal), then you could implement some way to give characters XP for spending time and money training (then let them advance levels as normal). This way you could simulate them lifting weights to gain strength, or target shooting to gain BaB, and so on. Since this requires a GP commitment, players can't simply train forever (they need to adventure to finance their training).

 

[schporto]

Bought equipment, such as armor, magic items, etc only adds a bonus to character skills or abilities; but not a permanent increase that lasts even after the item is gone.

I'm all for being able to buy a book (or collection of books) that would give you a +1/+2 circumstance bonus to knowledge checks. But any item that permanently increases a skill or ability should be magical and very rare/expensive.

The books like manual of gainful exercise come to mind - although they do fit the criteria of magical, and expensive. And that's fine that you don't like it. I'm not offended. I have my tastes, you yours.

Cabral - THANK YOU! Putting that succinctly into words is neigh perfect. I wouldn't allow folks to go over their skill cap. And I'm thinking there should be no retry. You just can't comprehend that book.
-cpd

 

[Dog Moon]

I think perhaps the items should be a little more expensive and perhaps drop the cap. A cloak of elvenkind grants +5 to Hide and costs 2,500gp. AND it uses a magical item slot. An item which doesn't take up an item space is supposed to cost twice as much, meaning that item would cost 5,000gp. The fact that it is a permanent bonus and cannot be taken away, stolen, dispelled, etc, means it should probably cost about a little more, say about 7,500gp.

[Bonus squared x100 is for a normal skill item such as the Cloak of Elvenkind]

I think the cost should be about Bonus squared x300, which would mean that +5 to a skill would cost 7,500gp. You wouldn't have to learn them in order, however, and since competence bonuses wouldn't stack, reading a +1 book and then a +3 book would only grant a total of +3. [It means that the book of Hide would also NOT stack with the Cloak of Elvenkind, to prevent someone from increasing their Hide by a LOT easily].

I suppose this is the way you might go if you were thinking of magical items similar to the Book/Tomes/Librams of stat increases. It may not be desirable to have them as magic items instead of something like normal textbooks, but by the magic item creation process, I believe this is more accurate to what the items should cost in comparison to other magic items.

 

[wuyanei]

I do not like the mechanics as written. Knowledge checks, especially knowledge checks made when on an adventure, reprsent the knowledge the characters have 'on hand'. Just reading a book once should not provide a permanent benefit, unless the books are magical, such as a Tome of Understanding or the like.

Instead of gaining a permanent bonus after reading each book, how about letting the characters amass a personal library that grants a circumstance bonus to either knowledge (any one), spellcraft or decipher script checks equal to the square root of (cost spent / 250)?

i.e. Cost of library = bonus squared x 250 gp

We use 250 gp because circumstance bonuses are better than competence bonuses -- comparable to the difference between luck bonuses (2500 gp) and enhancement bonuses (1000 gp). If the character wants bonuses to more than one skill, she can buy a seperate 'library' for each skill.

It should be reasonable that, for all the many benefits of broad reading, you generally do not memorize each and every book you read. Therefore, it should be reasonable to need to have the book at hand[/b] to gain the benefits. Also, one single book seldom containes the width of knowledge that one skill point represents -- Knowledge (physics), for example, will cover quantum mechanics, classical mechanics, classical electrodynamics, fluid dynamics, high energy physics, astrophysics, etc. etc. -- it is better to say that the bonuses come from a collection of many books relating to similar topics.

If you really want the characters to be able to get a permanent boost, I suggest using a Tome-like mechanism -- ie. a magic book that grants inherent bonuses to a skill. Let each wish spell grant +2 inherent bonus instead, up to a maximum of +10 inherent bonu, so the books would grant +2, +4, +6, +8, +10 inherent bonus to a single skill.

Spellcraft for Dummies: This delightfully illustrated handbook contains formulas and theories on metaphysics and the nature of magic, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, she gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +10 (depending on the type of tome) to any spellcraft check she makes. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Price 27,500 gp (+2), 55,000 gp (+4), 82,500 gp (+6), 110,000 gp (+8), 137,500 gp (+10); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+2), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+4), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+6), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+8), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+10); Weight 5 lb.

 

[Kapalen]

I do not like the mechanics as written. Knowledge checks, especially knowledge checks made when on an adventure, reprsent the knowledge the characters have 'on hand'. Just reading a book once should not provide a permanent benefit, unless the books are magical, such as a Tome of Understanding or the like.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just say that when a cleric makes a knowledge religion check they whip out their "Bible" and look up the answer? If reading books didn't give knowledge, why do they make texts books? Mathematicians don't have all their old text books, they don't need them after reading them. Showing they learned the knowledge i what the DC check is for.

 

[wuyanei]

No. When I said 'on hand' I meant 'memorized' or 'internalized'. So, no, when a cleric makes a knowledge check she does not whip out a bible -- but she will not recieve a single point bonus to her check even if she has more than 100 books about religion at home.

If read a book, then internalized the knowledge, is exactly what 'leveling up' represents. She can gain +1 rank as normal (by spending skill points) in this case. The skill points represent the time she spent practicing and honing her skill including reading and studying books. 'Reading' books do not give knowledgel. Knowledge comes from understanding what the books are talking about. In D&D, understanding comes from experience -- levels and skill points. Just reading a book does not help.