Books and Knowledge

[harperscout]

I like the idea that wuyanei hit on here. Instead of trying to say that a book gives a bonus point to any skill, why not say that if you have a book on hand... i.e. actually in your bag of holding, which you can draw out and reference, give a circumstance bonus of +2 to the knowledge check... maybe allow the circumstance bonus to actually linger for 8 hours.

Using Kaplen's arguement about the cleric taking out his bible, it isn't that the cleric doesn't remember certain phrases and whole verses, it is that with the bible in hand, he has more resources at his disposal. This would be great for something like a book on heraldry... a Bard knows he is traveling to a far away kingdom, so he buys a book to take with him... its almost like a trip-ticket .

I agree with others that ultimately, the skill points you earn as you level up represent this "behind the scenes" learning that your character does during down time. I don't think we should let this get out of hand... I don't think your players can just whip out a book before leaping off a cliff to gain a +2 to a jump check. I do think that a player who has a book on knot tying could spend a few hours studying a book that it is assumed he has already read during down time and then be able to gain a +2 circumstance bonus on securing a rope for his fellows to use while repellng a 200' cliff.

I think this would be a great treasure item for a DM to provide to players.

Think of how many aged wizards return to their libraries to verify one piece of info or another.

I think this could be a great tool for encouraging players to not only spend their money, but interact with more NPC's in search of the books.

 

[Kapalen]

While I actually agree that taking lessons in jumping or tumbling doesn't make sense, what' stopping my fighter from learning about his religion or geography giving him the appropriate knowledge skill? Do people without the knowledge arcane skill shun it and refuse to learn it? Knowledges should be aquirab;e by alternate means.

 

[Pssthpok]

I think it might work to allow ranks in a Research (Int) skill that lets you "use" books which are considered to have a certain number of ranks-worth of information in them.

So, if you have a chemistry book with Knowledge (chemistry) 6 ranks in it, you'd have to make a Research check say.. DC 10+1/rank above 5 (so DC 11 in this case) to "carry" those "virtual ranks" into an actual Knowledge (chemistry) check as though he had 6 ranks.

Random input, sorry.

 

[wuyanei]

While I actually agree that taking lessons in jumping or tumbling doesn't make sense, what' stopping my fighter from learning about his religion or geography giving him the appropriate knowledge skill?

Nothing at all! That's what cross-class skills are all about.

As for how you came upon this knowledge in-game, that is entirely up to you -- the fighter could have studied a book, asked a traveller, listened to a few stories etc. etc. It is only when you try to alter the game mechanics of gaining skills that things become troublesome.

Do people without the knowledge arcane skill shun it and refuse to learn it? Knowledges should be aquirable by alternate means.

In-game fluff can be rationalized anyway that you and the DM find plausible, but allowing extra skill-ranks without a balancing cost quickly alters the balance of the game. Just think about it -- a book on disable device. Or even worse: a book on UMD.

There is nothing at all wrong with a fighter that takes 10 ranks in Spellcraft as a cross-class skill. It is not very right to have that fighter gain the ranks for a mere 5000 or so gp (if you use the 50 gp x 10 x 10 pricing method). And it is terribly wrong for a 7th level fighter fighter to 'out-skill' a 7th level rogue for a mere 30000 gp in gold (5000 gp x 6).

 

[Yair]

I think perhaps the items should be a little more expensive and perhaps drop the cap. A cloak of elvenkind grants +5 to Hide and costs 2,500gp. AND it uses a magical item slot. An item which doesn't take up an item space is supposed to cost twice as much, meaning that item would cost 5,000gp. The fact that it is a permanent bonus and cannot be taken away, stolen, dispelled, etc, means it should probably cost about a little more, say about 7,500gp.

[Bonus squared x100 is for a normal skill item such as the Cloak of Elvenkind]

I think the cost should be about Bonus squared x3, which would mean that +5 to a skill would cost 7,500gp.

I agree with Bonus squared x 3000 gp as the price for a competence bonus, this seems to me the most balanced solution.
And I still don't like it. I prefer circumstance bonuses for perusal, like other suggested.

EDIT: Deleted long and wrong piece on Headband of Intelligence. Oops.

D&D isn't set up to gain experience directly in skills. If you want to do that, you should play Ars Magica.

 

[bakatare]

In the past I have introduced books on specific topics as treasure, that after being read granted a +1 or +2 circumstance bonus to knowledge checks directly related to the specific topic. For example, if the party's wizard found a tome on dragons, he would get a +1 bonus to knowledge (arcana) checks that were directly related to dragons, such as if trying to identify a gold dragon's special powers or vulnerabilities. If the book had been about gold dragons in particular, the bonus would be +2.

Seems to have worked well, with no balance issues.

 

[harperscout]

bakatare - did the players have that knowledge forever or was it just regarding a certain encounter that the players were coming up against?

Just curious how that fleshed out.

wuyanei - what if you limited the use of a book to gain a circumstance bonus only in skills that had knowledge as their primary ability? Do you think that would be more balancing?

 

[Cabral]

The problem with the circumstance bonus (to knowledge checks) is that Knowledge checks can't be used untrained. An "untrained" knowledge check is an Int check (thus knowledge check bonuses don't apply, although a +x circumstance bonus to all (or all Int and knowledge) checks regarding the subject would) and the max DC of informatin gleaned is 10.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I completely agree with wuyanei, DnD leveling mechanics should not be twinked in the way the OP suggests.... and thought there was rules somewhere for libraries of book referenced on this board not too long ago.

Basically the way I work it is that by referencing a book/library you can:
A> use the knoweldge skill untrained
B> gain a circumstance bonus to your check based on the quality of the book/library
C> gain synergy bonus to a Craft check.. assuming the quality of the book/library is high enough and accessable while Crafting
D> Take 10, although the time for the check is in months instead of days. Generally this means DC's of 15 to 20 are attainable after a number of months of research.
{ a random thought of a Feat of Researcher allowing faster use of this ability }

Note.. none of this is while adventuring.. Its all while researching much in the way Gandolf is depicted in the recent movie adaptation.

The size of the book/library sets the number of days you need to use it, and usually has a higher circumstance bonus and/or larger number of knowledge skills available. In this fashion, libraries become valuable assets, coveted and improved upon by nobles and scholars.

As most of my players are not into book keeping, these rules have stayed at plot point level.. with no regard to how much it cost to create/build such a library. My players do know that if they go to the Morgrave University they can, for a fee, spend time in the library and learn about Xendrix's ancient cultures.

Example plot based Library:
Morgrave University, Research time, 1D10+4 days.
Knowledge: Xendric, +3
Knowledge: History, +5
Knowledge: Local (Sharn) +5

If some one could dig up the previous thread.. or refine what we have here into a better version, I would be happy to *yoink* it

 

[Sir Brennen]

This topic was brought up on my regular group's msg board awhile ago, so I yoinked a big section from there:

I think of mundane books more as a kind of masterwork item, and don't see them being more than +2. IMC, a book which grants +1 would be 200gp, and +2 would be 500gp. They have to be actively referenced when making the skill check to give their bonus.

Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, has books that add a bonus to a relevant Knowledge check. The price is Bonus (squared) x 10 gp. A Book with a +5 bonus would therefore be a 250 gp book.

The Monsternomicon (Privateer Press) has a similar mechanic, but ups the gold piece value considerably, with a +1 Tome being 1,000 gp, going up to 15,000+ for a +5 Tome.

A couple of other d20 sources on books and libraries:

Mongoose has Tomes and Libraries from their Encyclopedia Arcane line. It's got some interesting ideas on using individual books, rating them as Average, Good and Excellent (bonuses of +1, 2 and 3, respectively.) They are, however, really cheap (5, 10 and 20gp) They also require a training period, but I'm not going much into mechanics for copyright reasons.

Manuals introduce the idea that there are basic 'how-to' books which can give a skill bonus, but only up to a point. A rogue could buy a Good book on Locksmithing, but once he has 10 ranks in Open Lock, he knows everything in the book by heart, and no longer receives any benefit from it. Manuals generally do not apply to Craft, Profession or Knowledge skills. Applying the manual's bonus requires a Concentration check ("Was it cut the blue wire, or cut the green wire?")

Reference books are more comprehensive, often coming in several volumes, and contain more info than even a skilled character could be expected to memorize. Therefore, there is no point at which the books become useless.

There's a paragraph on using language reference books, like an Elvish-Common dictionary. Thought that was a neat idea.

Definitive Texts are Excellent (+3) reference books for a particular skill, as well as giving some other added benefits, which are a bit narrower in focus. All of these texts have well known names.

A character with the definitive work on runes and hieroglyphs, for example, can tell what's on a magical scroll without Read Magic, gets a +2 bonus on caster level check when casting a scroll spell above his level, and gets a +10 on Spellcraft checks when identifying a Symbol. The book gives a +3 on Decipher Script, is written in Dwarvish, is made up of two volumes and is huge.

There's a section on books related to magic item creation, allowing the building in of certain augmentations to items. There's also a few magical books listed.