Boss Monsters? I Just Say No!

The video game focus on “boss” monsters doesn’t make sense for tabletop RPGs. Video gamers are disappointed if the climactic monster doesn’t kill them several times; in RPGs, once you die, you (usually) don’t respawn. First a little history. Jeffro Johnson asked me if I'd used the monsters I contributed to the D&D Fiend Folio back in the late 70s as bosses. Most of my monsters in FF were minor, but the Princes of Elemental Evil were really powerful, and they also have stuck around in various ways (see Wikipedia: “Archomental”). For example, for the fifth edition of D&D, an entire large adventure module was titled after the Princes of Elemental Evil. I told Jeffro that my campaigns were never high enough level for the Princes, though I did run into one of them once as a player. (Imagine how annoying THAT is.) We fled posthaste because we wanted nothing to do with the fire Prince.

I realized that I've never thought in terms of boss monsters for tabletop D&D, that it's part of the video game mentality, and I asked myself why? In tabletop D&D, unlike video games, if you die you don't have a save game to go back to, and you don’t respawn automatically. You are dead when the party’s wiped out, unless somebody else uses a Wish. You can’t get killed a lot and succeed. On the other hand, video game bosses are designed to be really tough, to kill you many times before you succeed. You gradually have to figure out what to do to beat them. You could play tabletop RPGs that way, but would it be practical? The key is that there's no save game/respawn. Consequently a video game boss tends to be much tougher than the monsters you meet at a climax in tabletop RPGs, relative to the strength of the party.

Video gamers would be disappointed if virtually every time they had a climax they won the first time; they’d feel cheated. This is a matter of expectations. The video gamers expect the boss monster, and they expect it to be so tough that they're going to die several times before they finally succeed. Bosses are really a video game phenomenon because they are too dangerous for tabletop RPGs. You can't lose a computer RPG thanks to save games, while you can lose a tabletop RPG by dying just once.

I tend to use numerous monsters of several different kinds in a climax rather than one super boss, it varies of course, but I think this gives the players a better chance to develop strategies (and tactics) than if there is one super-powerful monster. And it makes tabletop RPGs different from video game RPGs in yet another way.

Groups of several different kinds of monsters can rely on a synergy between their capabilities, more or less like combined arms in military terms. The players may not immediately recognize what’s really dangerous when they face more than one monster. In this way, single monsters are too easy, too straightforward, quite apart from often not really fitting the fictional reality well.

I like temples as climax for a level because it fits my notions of the D&D world as a war between Good and Evil. In a temple you might have some priests, some low-level minions, some more powerful sidekicks, some monsters that have the same religion, some animals that are controlled by the religion. There are a lot of different capabilities there, and it won’t necessarily be clear which of the priests are most powerful, or even if it’s the priests that are most powerful rather than some of the sidekicks. If there is a straight magic-user present he or she will probably have lots of guards or at least obstacles between himself and the players.

This is likely to be a lot more interesting than a confrontation with one monster. Yes, you can use a single powerful monster, but it can’t be nearly as powerful in comparison to the player characters as it can be in a video game. Unless you want the players to fail, and if you do there are more subtle ways to do it.

This is as always descriptive, not prescriptive; how you GM is up to you.

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. We are always on the lookout for freelance columnists! If you have a pitch, please contact us!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Hussar

Legend
I think [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] largely has the right of it. Many of us cut our teeth in D&D through modules. And modules, by and large, are set up for the big showdown fight at the end of the module. There are notable exceptions, of course, but, they are notable BECAUSE they are exceptions. Heck, how many of us got our start in Keep on the Borderlands which has about a dozen boss fights at the end of each cave?
 

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Grainger

Explorer
Methinks one often sees what one wants to see. Sure, many action movies aren't deathless art. But you know what? Most of our games aren't deathless art either.

Here you go again.

You know, on the internet, there's a natural tendency for discussions to drive to polar opposites - and in large part it is because of statements like these. The hyperbolic "all". Very dramatic. But also not descriptive of any position taken by anyone here. I return to the initial statement of this post.

We are talking at cross-purposes. I am using conversational language, but that doesn't always come across as intended on the 'net, so I will clarify.

Of course I don't think that "all" D&D games are purely combat based. I've already said that mine aren't, for instance (and I have played others that aren't). The key word in that sentence is "if". "It would be a shame if". Not "it is a shame that". I was making a point about there being a wider world of possibility than a series of action scenes. I hoped my point was clear, but to spell it out literally, I am saying that I would hope that with tens of thousands of D&D groups, there are a high number of interesting games out there, just by dint of the numbers involved.

As to your point about the treatment of PTSD in films... I'm not familiar with the movie/s you describe, but I'm sure they do it very well, and I applaud the film makers for doing so. However, my point stands for action movies in general. In D&D, you can deal with PTSD as a theme in any style you like. The makers of the Marvel films can't do it in any other genre - they can't make a Jane Austen movie. They have to stretch the genre they're working in to make their point. Stretching/developing the genre is great, and in some ways that can be very effective, as they can challenge the audience who've turned up for an action movie and who wouldn't go to a different type of movie. And this, I suppose, in essence is what I am arguing for in D&D - to stretch the genre of fiction - or even to move into different genres*.



*By genre here, I'm not talking about moving away from fantasy, but switching style of story-telling.
 
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Grainger

Explorer
When you decided to run a game, at least implicitly, you chose a genre. Then, if you were smart, you chose a game with mechanics that suit your genre, right? So, there's a significant degree of system in it, only because what form of resolution is appropriate for a climax is genre-dependent. And, face it folks - most of us are playing heroic action/adventure genres, for which a fight is generally an entirely appropriate and natural climax for a story.

Thing is, I suspect most people don't really choose a genre per se. D&D is the big name in RPGs. People go for that because it's what they've heard of/seen online (or what they played 30 years ago). A newcomer to RPGs isn't likely to go for Fiasco (although they might, depending on who introduces them to the hobby).

True, the genre of sword and sorcery is also a big factor in attracting people to D&D, but also the ubiquity does. In most things, people rarely sift through the options and carefully choose the best match for them - they tend to stumble into things due to some aligning factors (albeit of course they've chosen to do something that has some sense of appeal). In my own group, I have players who play 5e because they played D&D decades ago. At least two of my players played it because they were, 20 years ago, introduced to it - it's the game their friends played. If their friends played something else, then that's what they would have played.

So, I'm very much in the situation where my group plays D&D largely through inertia/familiarity, and that gives me a lot of scope to do different things with it. And that's a lot better than players in love with the system per se. When I encounter players who are far more in love with the crunch than the possibilities of the genre and game, I find it less interesting.
 

Grainger

Explorer
I think @S'mon largely has the right of it. Many of us cut our teeth in D&D through modules. And modules, by and large, are set up for the big showdown fight at the end of the module. There are notable exceptions, of course, but, they are notable BECAUSE they are exceptions. Heck, how many of us got our start in Keep on the Borderlands which has about a dozen boss fights at the end of each cave?

True.

But when we look at examples of genre fiction, how many of them end in a boss fight*?

Lord of the Rings (the book) has plenty of combat, but my overwhelming impression is of arduous travel. It doesn't end in a boss fight per se (although the struggle for the ring at the Crack of Doom counts as an action scene). Lord of the Rings is won by two basically normal people enduring. Most of it is walking. Hey, maybe we should have a lot more "walking simulator" in D&D!**

We don't know how the Game of Thrones TV series is going to end, but - violent as it is - I wouldn't say its story peaks are defined by boss fights where a hero or heroes defeat a monster, especially in its early years. It's just not structured like that. Although I would say a big boss fight at the end is much more likely now they're veered away from the books.


*Probably a lot of it, I'm sure.
**[Ducks]
 
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Grainger

Explorer
ALIENS is also not just a series of fights or action scenes.

Yes, it has other stuff in it (I don't think any story - outside of some RPG sessions or video games - is just fights), but once they get to the planet, the narrative is pretty much driven by fights and action scenes, and it's resolved by such.

We're missing the point here. I don't think many would argue that Aliens isn't an action movie. Nor would anyone argue that action movies have only fights in them. So, of course Aliens has stuff in it other than fights. But it's essentially action.

The Game of Thrones series is a counter example. It has lots of fights and tonnes of violence. But it isn't driven by fights or action scenes in the same way that an action movie is (particularly in its early years). This may be simply because it has more room to breathe - more space between the battles and so on. I'm not sure. But it feels like the goal of a movie like Aliens is to get to the next action scene while Game of Thrones - at least early on - was a lot more textured than that.
 

Hussar

Legend
True.

But when we look at examples of genre fiction, how many of them end in a boss fight*?

Lord of the Rings (the book) has plenty of combat, but my overwhelming impression is of arduous travel. It doesn't end in a boss fight per se (although the struggle for the ring at the Crack of Doom counts as an action scene). Lord of the Rings is won by two basically normal people enduring. Most of it is walking. Hey, maybe we should have a lot more "walking simulator" in D&D!**

We don't know how the Game of Thrones TV series is going to end, but - violent as it is - I wouldn't say its story peaks are defined by boss fights where a hero or heroes defeat a monster, especially in its early years. It's just not structured like that. Although I would say a big boss fight at the end is much more likely now they're veered away from the books.


*Probably a lot of it, I'm sure.
**[Ducks]

I think you just answered your own question though. As you say, many, many genre fiction stories end with a boss fight. It's not like this idea just came out of nowhere. It's been part and parcel to the genre since pretty much day one.
 

I agree with lewpuls comments entirely.
The term, "boss", has grown from the video industry, and although D&D has always had high-level adversaries, it has never had, nor should have, the video-style "boss".
Pointing out older game version adversaries doesn't make any points here as the base trait of the"boss" remains the same: The accepted anticipation of a recoverable death that is totally absent (or should be, at the very least).

I encounter way too many players these days who expect a video experience from a tabletop game. They want 20th level adversaries and events with 1st level characters, leveling after every fight, and non-stop, non-resting, and non-interactive restock and resupply at every turn.
Many of these players have little consideration for role-play, leave character sheets almost blank (why write down equipment if you expect everything you need to be in a clearly marked and labeled box sitting right In front of the door with the monsters behind it), and refuse to believe that they can get killed by 10 orcs when it takes hundreds to kill them in the video game!
Besides, if we die, we'll just try again.

Most of these player do not last (Thank Moradin) more than a few sessions before they decide not to return, but more and more of todays newbies are locked into this video-game mentality.

Wizards is not helping with the new versions released (4 & 5). The hype is action, rules clarification is lacking, and there is blatant cross- over of concepts and actions from their M:TG line.
Once again, big difference in expectations between a card game and an RPG.
The concepts are not the problem, however, the explanations and rules coverage are.
2018 D&D is not the sane game as 1975 D&D, but it should be.

The game rules used to give sensible explanations and realistic expectations, now you get core mechanics and quick glossed-over blurbs that generate more questions than answers.

Boss monsters have no place in the vast majority of scenarios or campaigns for D&D.
Powerful villains with hidden agendas and characters with careful planning and diligence are what set D&D apart.

I've never used any "boss" monsters and I've successfully concluded many games in the last 40 years both as player and DM with many long-term players at my table.

I DM with two simple rules:
1) There's no guarantee that you will make it to level 20.
2) If you play stupid, you die, stupid.

No " bosses" necessary.

Take your time, watch your step, and stay alive. Played as Gary & Dave intended.
 

Grainger

Explorer
I think you just answered your own question though. As you say, many, many genre fiction stories end with a boss fight. It's not like this idea just came out of nowhere. It's been part and parcel to the genre since pretty much day one.

Sure, but I never said that wasn't the case. My point is that D&D has huge possibility. We are not constrained by genre unless we want to be.
 

S'mon

Legend
We're missing the point here. I don't think many would argue that Aliens isn't an action movie.

I've never thought of Aliens - or The Terminator, or Avatar, or Robocop, or Starship Troopers - as 'action movies'. 'Action Movies' are stuff where the plot is just there to link the action scenes (I agree with you there) - Commando, True Lies, Rambo 3, Total Recall, the Die Hard series. Predator feels like an action movie to me, despite the horror element, but Aliens or The Terminator don't. I guess they're sci-fi action horror. Notably both have protagonists who feel much weaker than the opposition and who don't willingly resort to force to resolve the issue.
 

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