Brakes Off - Multiclassing

[cmbarona]

To the OP, I should mention that as long as you exclude at-wills and only allow swapping powers instead of adding them on, I don't see it being too overpowered.

That said, I often wonder if people's hangups about multiclassing arise not from multiclassing, but from Paragon multiclassing. IMHO, I think the at-will should be added, not swapped. Other corrections are of course necessary, but that's my biggest problem with it at the moment.

 

[-Avalon-]

My only question is:

Do you have to pick that feat each time you wish to swap something? or is it pick something one time, and can swap from then on?

well, second question also...

Does the player gain any more of the basic class features from the second class? Otherwise, you are only swapping abilities and not really gaining the needed parts of the class for PP's and such...

 

[ShinRyuuBR]

I've done about the same thing a couple of months ago. The thread must be buried somewhere around here.

First, I made a feat called simply Power Swap, which has the MC initation feat as prerequisite. With this feat, you can trade powers up to half of each category (at-will attack, encounter attack, daily attack and utility).

Then, recognizing the potential problems in so much freedom, I placed a simple restriction: if you are multiclassing out of your primary role, then your highest-level power in each of the 4 categories must be from your primary class. For example, if you are a 3rd level fighter/rogue, you may have a rogue level 1 encounter attack but not a level 3 one; on the other hand, if you are a 3rd level ranger/rogue, you may have a rogue encounter attack of level 1 or 3 (although not both). After all, powers between the same role overlap reasonably, while those between different roles represent a much greater versatility.

The power swapping is valid throughout all 30 levels, but must always observe the restriction of not having more powers from the secondary class than from the primary one, in each category.

If you choose the Paragon Multiclassing option, your paragon powers must be from your secondary class as normal, and these also count against your limit of powers from the secondary class (see above).

In Paragon MC, starting at 11th level, when you use an action point, you may use an encounter power from your secondary class without expending its use, and may use it as if recharged if you have already used it.

Also, at 16th level, you gain a new class feature from your secondary class (I made a list of these).

Another thing that bothered me were the Pact Initiate and Arcane Initiate feats. Unlike other MC feats, they do not grant class features, but actual class powers. Also, I feel every wizard should begin his training with cantrips. So, instead of gaining a 1st level at-will power, he gains all cantrips (note he's just 1 feat away of actually trading one of his own at-wills for a wizard one). And the Pact Initate grants the warlock's curse once per encounter, along with the pact boon.

I realize the Arcane Initiate benefit is quite dull, but its a simple lack of class features. It would make little sense to give the Spellbook feature with the first feat, since at that point you can't learn wizard powers and should not be forced to get another feat (Ritual Caster) to enjoy its benefit. So there are the cantrips and implement mastery. As I said before, at 16th a new class feature is gained, and its usually a very nice one, so full implement mastery would be gained then. Thus cantrips with the first feat.

I'll post more about this later.

 

[Henry]

Keeping this in mind, why wouldn't EVERYONE pick up multiclassing with this house rule? With you getting this feat, you still get 6 or 7 other feats by 10th level, and being able to swap out as you please with two different class' powersis a tremendous bonus, moreso than anything any other feat gives. Plus, your prime stat naturally lends itself to at least one other class (swordmage/wizard, warlord/fighter, rogue/ranger, etc.) so you'd easily have the necessary scores. It would be silly NOT to pick it up, other than a willful desire to ignore power over flavor, for someone who REALLY only wants a single class.

I think it would be disproportionate to the power of other feats. If I were attempting it, I'd blend the first two multiclass feats into one feat, and the other two multiclass feats into a second feat, to make it at least two feat picks required.

 

[ShinRyuuBR]

Good question, that would be answered by the later part of the house rule, where I put skill or proficiency prerequisites to the initate feats, instead of giving free skills. I'd post it here right away if not for the fact it's not in English yet.

 

[brehobit]

The issue is that even ignoring at wills, some classes have better powers. It's not a design problem per se. Rather some classes get more non-power things (hit points, prof., class abilities) while others get more power-related things.

Wizards, on the whole, have great utilities. Shield is great for example. So is blur.

My Fighter will be taking 2 of the power swap feats (utility, daily) because it is so clearly worth it. I've yet to see a build where a wizard would take a power swap feat because generally they have the best powers (and very few other powers work off of them).

The cost of the feat balances this out quite a bit. I'd take the encounter swap too (healing strike isn't bad at all), but _that_ isn't worth the feat in my opinion. Better than my fighter options, but the difference isn't as good as weapon focus or toughness...

mark

 

[Plane Sailing]

moved to house rules

 

[Syntallah]

moved to house rules

Sorry, my intention for starting the Thread was to discuss the impact of the proposed rule change with a wider audience, not to cover any specific alterations. That's why I posted in the 4E Rules Forum, rather than House Rules.

 

[jedavis]

I could actually see playing 4e with an unlimited-multiclass feat like that... perhaps restrict it so that you can only take it once if you're concerned about rampant multiclassing. Or add some 'reqs.

 

[BlindGeekUK]

In my game, we've handled it as:

Multiclass feats remain named as they are

Once multiclassed, you are considered to be that class for feat pre-reqs

New powers at each level MUST be from original class

You can multi class once during heroic tier (at level 1 or 2 or 4), and once during paragon tier

Your paragon path has to be from your original class

When multi-classing, you gain 1 class skill, 1 at-will from new class as a encounter power and 1 class feature

New feats to replace PHB power swap feats: Multi-Class Power Swap, Multi-Class Additional Power, Multi-Class Additional Feature, Multi-Class Additional Skill

Power swap feat means you can, when re-training encounter/utility/daily, choose it from any ONE of your classes
Additional power feat gives you an additional at-will from the new class as an encounter power
Additional feature feat gives you an additional class feature benefit from the new class
Additional skill gives you an additional class skill from the new class


We also have a house rule that at level 4 you get an additional at will, mainly so that the players can take advantage of the new powers in the books without retraining.

We have a 3rd level ranger who is about 50 points of level 4, and his feat at level 4 is homebrew, allowing to gain a beast companion that flees when bloodied. His extra at-will will then be a beast realted power