Branstorming for ENnies 2003 -- improvements, changes, etc

[Nightfall]

I'll have to check my book again, but I dont remember a map being in the book either.

If you find one Scott my friend, let me know.

 

[JeffB]

I won't get into the whole mess..but I would like to make a couple of observations...

1) I agree w/ Nightfall.. OA is rules supplement with an oriental theme..it's not a setting supplement...

2) Since WOTC doesn't even have to follow the D20 License like every other publisher (barring perhaps, Kenzer?), should they be allowed to compete?

 

[Teflon Billy]

...I have to disagree. There was one poster who pretty much said it flat-out. There was no way to rationalize what was being said other than that the judges fixed it in favor of WotC, and that we - and EN World - were, essentially, shills for WotC.

Hah!...talk about your Ill-informed assheads!.

WotC shills indeed. The WotC stuff had very high production values and better than average content. That's all. The WotC stuff that's in there is in there because it deserved to be.

What exactly do our critics think we owe WotC? Were they offering me a new car? a million dollars? what exactly?

They entered stuff, it was good enough to get the nomination. Period.

I'm not a Fanboy of any stripe, and to a great degree am not overwhelmingly positive toward WotC product (see any thread on a splatbook and look for my name)

If I could be accused of leaning toward any one companies stuff this year, it would have to be S&S's Scarred Lands material.

Guess why.

Because it's good. Not becasue I'm a shill for them. I nominated their products for the same reason I nominated WotC's.

They deserved to be there.

I was chosen as a judge, by the EN World community because they felt my tastes to some degree would reflect theirs.

I have no special abilities when it comes to gaming material, no great insight, no ability to produce it myself.

What I have is an appreciation for good product. I showed that appreciation as best I could with the five slots open to me. It's been said before, but it bears repeating: there were a lot of ties for the fourth and fifth slots. But after much argument (and i mean a lo) we came up with the nominees we came up with.

To imply that we were somehow shills, for nominating one product in five is just to precious.

WotC nearly swept because of name recognition and product quality. You can argue that the former is unfair, but the latter certainly isn't...and let me assure you; both reasons figured into it.

What didn't figure into it, however, was WotC shills amongst the judging comittee. Alan, Jeff, Charles, Eric and myself put untold hours of work into the judging (I took a week off work to make sure all products got a fair shake), and those hours were spent comparing notes, revising opinions and debating.

Not shilling.

 

[Khan the Warlord]

Coln,

You'll forgive me if I find my creduality strained regarding OA. Yes it's a good book. Yes it's deserving of nominations. But Best SETTING?! I'm sorry I don't see it.

After giving OA a second look, I can easily see why the judges picked it as one of the nominations. It has been said already why it won Best Setting: it is truly a good work and the recognition and history of WotC were just too much for any other campaign world to tackle and win against.

I didn't see one freaking map in that book.

No offense intended dear Nightfall, but its fairly obvious that you didn't really comb through OA if you never saw "one freaking map". OA is LITTERED with maps throughout the last few chapters; granted, I don't think there are any full world-maps available in it, but there are many maps.

Nor did I see any reference to a city, it's population or laws.

Once again, I don't think you've really given OA a good read-over. Re-read chapter 11 (beginning on page 207) and you'll find a detailed history, timeline, discussion as to the philosophy of the Celestial Order, full descriptions on the Empire of Rokugan and the various clans (including "population" that you say isn't there), and even adventure hooks for each clan and major location.

As a side note, also be sure to read Chapter 10: Campaign Design and Chapter 12: The Shadowlands, for more examples of James Wyatt detailing the world itself, as opposed to the earlier chapters that mainly focused on game mechanics and conversions (but they DO have quite a bit of campaign material hidden within them all).

I'm sorry but to me, if it doesn't have that, it's a suppliment, not a setting. Again that's just my opinion and certainly I'm not taking it out on ANYONE in charge. I just think that maybe something like that needed to be rethought is my only gripe.

Well, hopefully you agree that the evidence I presented here disputes your claims that OA wasn't worthy of being considered an actual campaign setting.

Now don't get me wrong; I initially thought the same as you and others concerning OA not being worthy of that nomination, but in re-reading the book, I've found one thing to be true: the judges actually READ the book and the majority of us didn't.

 

[Mark]

If the playing field is to be leveled, let it be leveled by the publishers, not through a change in the format or guidelines for entrants. As long as WotC continues to produce quality material and enter categories they will undoubtedly continue to win most categories in which they have a nomination. Other publishers need to increase the awareness of their product lines and garner awards through producing quality products and convincing their fan base to vote.

The fact that all employees in a company are likely to vote for their company's nominations makes any larger company on a higher footing than any smaller company (WotC not exclusively gaining this advantage).

IMO, under the current conditions, every nomination that didn't take home an ENnie is made that much stronger by the participation of WotC. The four in each category that did not win the award are recognized as competing with WotC and the fans know full well that WotC is likely to win because of their expansive market exposure. It's a win/win situation for all that are involved.

My two cents...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Coln,

You'll forgive me if I find my creduality strained regarding OA. Yes it's a good book. Yes it's deserving of nominations. But Best SETTING?! I'm sorry I don't see it. I didn't see one freaking map in that book. Nor did I see any reference to a city, it's population or laws. I'm sorry but to me, if it doesn't have that, it's a suppliment, not a setting. Again that's just my opinion and certainly I'm not taking it out on ANYONE in charge. I just think that maybe something like that needed to be rethought is my only gripe.

It was rethought, in the sense that we discussed it and addressed the issue as to whether it did or did not meet what we felt were the criteria for a setting supplement. To me, those criteria are: maps, histories, details of the factions within the setting, and setting-specific "crunchy bits." As I've said, it was an uncomfortable fit, but a fit nonetheless. I don't think anyone can come up with a set of cut'n'dried criteria that would make everyone happy.

 

[EarthsShadow]

Would it be possible, only as an option, that next year everyone is able to be involved in deciding who the five finalists are in the nomination process? Could that be a possibility?

Also, this is out of curiosity and I don't know this, but what is the time period within the year for the books released to be nominated and then voted on? an example, is the period for releases from June 1 to May 31st of the next year?

 

[DPGDarrin]

Well my friend must have destroyed it since I didn't see it in his copy of OA. But I'll take your word Darrin.

Yep, it definitely came with a map, as I'm holding it in my hands as I type this.

My personal feelings on OA is that when it was initially released, I was looking for less campaign specific stuff unless it was tied to Kara-Tur rather than Rokugan. I don't have a definite yes or no on whether or not I think it qualifies as a campaign setting, though I found it completely weird that it was competing against Rokugan.

Just a point of clarification: was the Scarred Lands setting supposed to be just the one hard backed volume "Scarred Lands Campaign Setting: Ghelspad," or was it an amalgam of RR, CC1&2, the Divine and the Defeated, and the other sourcebooks that have been released in support of it?

 

[Lady Dragon]

OA does have a map at least my copy does. It came with a pull-out poster map. As I have already stated in this thread I do not think that OA was properly catagorized. If is basically a rulebook that gives and example setting which covers about a third of the book.

I think part of the problem is that there are so many entrants to the rulebook setting and only a few for settings so crossbooks tend to end up in the catagory with fewer books.

I do want to state that I think that OA was an excellent book it was just in the wrong catagory if it had won in the rulebook catagory I wouldn't have a problem with it.

It has occured to me that any book by any company that was crossover would have an advantage because it would likely reach more people.

Since we are discussing the Settings catagory I will use it as my example. There are 3 reasons why people might buy a settings book. First because they want to use to setting itself. Second because they are looking for inspiration and ideas for another campaign world (homebrew or published) and Third so they can use only the crunchy bits. Any "setting" book which half or more Crunch is going to appeal to a much wider audience,especially if much of it is generic like OA is. And this is likely to happen frequently as publishers try to appeal to a wider audience.

I also think part of the problem with the awards is that 2/3 of the products are either Rulebooks or Adventures. Adventures need to be divided into Mega and regular and rulebook needs to be divided into magic supplement,class/race supplement and general. Just like we will continue to get monster supplements I think we will continue to get class/race books and magic books mostly because they appeal to players as well as Dm's.

I do want to make it clear I am not critizing the judges I think they did a wonderful job and they made a difficult choice I just don't agree with it.

As for crossover products the judges need to decide the actual intent of the book. Yes most setting books have some rules material even adventures do sometimes but they are still setting books or adventures because that is the books intent. In the case of OA I think that the intent of the book is to introduce oriental flavored rules to the D&D game and an example setting is given for this purpose.The book is perfectly useable by someone who will never use the Rokugan material thus it is a rulebook. On the other hand the Rokugan Hardcover was intended to be used as the sourcebook for adventuring in the world of Rokugan thus it is a Setting book even though it does have rules in these rules are intended for use in Rokugan.Many of the rules in OA are clearly not meant to be used in the setting it uses as an example.

We already have an example of a setting crossover book this year Swashbukling Adventures is a so called setting book but 2/3 of it is Classes.

 

[Nightfall]

I won't get into the whole mess..but I would like to make a couple of observations...

1) I agree w/ Nightfall.. OA is rules supplement with an oriental theme..it's not a setting supplement...

2) Since WOTC doesn't even have to follow the D20 License like every other publisher (barring perhaps, Kenzer?), should they be allowed to compete?

Well thanks Jeff. I appreciate the support.


Khanny, I'm glad to see that you like to support the vote. I've never doubted your character and I respect it now even more. While I didn't give OA a great deal of a read, I'm willing to admit, I still read it and I guess I didn't see it as you do now. I still don't. But I respect you my friend so I'll just say we'll agree to disagree.

Btw thanks Telfon Billy for giving us a very interesting and deeply personal commentary. I personally enjoyed it.

Darrin, firstly it looks like you're right. Secondly in regards to your question, while I can't speak for Ethan and the others, this question has come up before, especially regarding the SLCS. Orginally they did the Creature Collection as a way of judging where they wanted to go. As more people put in stuff for R&R1, it began to grow. Evenually the cry for a Hardback came after they did the Ghelspad Gaz. So in a sense, the SLCS WAS an amalgamation of R&R, CC, and the other books...but it was also a means to an end. That end of course is creating a fully cohesive setting.