Michael Tree
First Post
It's not a book, but "Connor McCloud of the Clan McCloud of the Planet Zeist" is the pinnacle of filmmaking breaking the contract IMO.
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Breaking the Author/Reader Contract.
- Thread starter nikolai
- Start date
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
takyris said:
Looo-ove Zahn.
Loved him since long before he touched Star Wars, too.
The Blackcollar is still my favourite book.
Michael Tree said:
I have no idea what you're on about.
And neither does anyone else, if they know what's good for them.
-Hyp.
Cthulhudrew
First Post
Hypersmurf said:
Speaking of Highlander, did anyone else here ever wonder if the Queen of Hearts (from Alice in Wonderland) was a Highlander?
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cignus_pfaccari
First Post
Gomez said:
(tugs on braid)
Men!
(sniff)
Seriously...he's fixing to go off my hardcover list. In fact, he may already be off it, since I'm not touching A New (and Extended) Spring with a 10-foot pole.
Brad
Viking Bastard
Adventurer
Why?Cthulhudrew said:
Can't say I have.
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Villano
First Post
How can a writer break his "contract" with the reader? Spend the entire book setting up a conflict and then have it be solved by someone other than the hero.
I won a lot of all 6 of the Red Sonja book series on eBay. I've read the first two and both do that. I'll eventually try to read the others, but, man, the author really betrayed my trust.
In the first book, an ancient wizard is looking for a magic ring. He curses an underling, "Duke Peledies" I believe his name was, with a deformity for failing him. The ring is also being sought by clerics of an evil god. Naturally, Sonja finds the ring.
Now, Sonja spends the entire book protecting the ring from the clerics, the wizard's monsters, and the Duke, whom she doesn't trust. Also, Sonja discovers that the ring protects her from the wizard's magic.
The climax seems obvious, doesn't it? Sonja will use the ring to stop the wizard, right? Wrong! Amazingly enough, the author chooses instead to
:\
Even if you skipped the above spoilers, don't read the book. Trust me.
In the second one, Sonja is framed for a murder and takes shelter in a city which is conducting human sacrifices to some sort of alien spirits (it's kind of Lovecraftian). She ends up being pursued there by the real killer and his army.
However, halfway through the book, Sonja
And that's how you betray your contract with your readers.
No wonder there were only six books. Who the hell wants to read a series about a heroine who doesn't matter?
I won a lot of all 6 of the Red Sonja book series on eBay. I've read the first two and both do that. I'll eventually try to read the others, but, man, the author really betrayed my trust.
In the first book, an ancient wizard is looking for a magic ring. He curses an underling, "Duke Peledies" I believe his name was, with a deformity for failing him. The ring is also being sought by clerics of an evil god. Naturally, Sonja finds the ring.
Now, Sonja spends the entire book protecting the ring from the clerics, the wizard's monsters, and the Duke, whom she doesn't trust. Also, Sonja discovers that the ring protects her from the wizard's magic.
The climax seems obvious, doesn't it? Sonja will use the ring to stop the wizard, right? Wrong! Amazingly enough, the author chooses instead to
have Sonja's followers give up on her and tell her to just give the ring to the Duke. He disappears and, shortly therafter, Sonja ends up fighting the clerics.
In the middle of the battle, they announce that they sense that the wizard is dead. That's right, a supporting character kills the villain..."offscreen" no less!
But wait, it gets worse! She forms a truce with the clerics and they go to the wizard's castle. They find the wizard and the Duke dead. They killed each other. Suddenly, the Duke's body rises up and tries to kill them! Oh no, he's possessed by the wizard!
At this point, you'd expect Sonja to stop the zombie. Nope. The whining girlfriend of a supporting character stabs him in the back, killing him forever.
Finally, the clerics seal up the wizard's spirit and Sonja gives them the ring and they leave.
So, let's review. She doesn't kill the wizard (in fact, we never even see his death), and she gives the ring to 2 of the 3 parties she's supposed to keep it away from. And let's not forget that the clerics are evil!
Plus, the zombie Duke is killed not just by a supporting character, but a supporting character's girlfriend! How much worse can you get?
The best way to sum up this story is to ask you to imagine playing D&D. After spending all your time fighting the minions and gathering clues, you make it to the wizard's castle...only to discover another party of adventurers there. They killed the wizard already and took his treasure. The end.
You would never speak to your DM again.
In the middle of the battle, they announce that they sense that the wizard is dead. That's right, a supporting character kills the villain..."offscreen" no less!
But wait, it gets worse! She forms a truce with the clerics and they go to the wizard's castle. They find the wizard and the Duke dead. They killed each other. Suddenly, the Duke's body rises up and tries to kill them! Oh no, he's possessed by the wizard!
At this point, you'd expect Sonja to stop the zombie. Nope. The whining girlfriend of a supporting character stabs him in the back, killing him forever.
Finally, the clerics seal up the wizard's spirit and Sonja gives them the ring and they leave.
So, let's review. She doesn't kill the wizard (in fact, we never even see his death), and she gives the ring to 2 of the 3 parties she's supposed to keep it away from. And let's not forget that the clerics are evil!
Plus, the zombie Duke is killed not just by a supporting character, but a supporting character's girlfriend! How much worse can you get?
The best way to sum up this story is to ask you to imagine playing D&D. After spending all your time fighting the minions and gathering clues, you make it to the wizard's castle...only to discover another party of adventurers there. They killed the wizard already and took his treasure. The end.
You would never speak to your DM again.
Even if you skipped the above spoilers, don't read the book. Trust me.
In the second one, Sonja is framed for a murder and takes shelter in a city which is conducting human sacrifices to some sort of alien spirits (it's kind of Lovecraftian). She ends up being pursued there by the real killer and his army.
However, halfway through the book, Sonja
has to hide from her enemies in a wizard's cave, where she stays for the remainder of the story.
The wizard (with no help from Sonja) drives back the army when it attacks the cave, the spirits destroy the city, and the spirits are driven back by a temple virgin who has some sort of magical power.
So, about halfway through the book, Sonja does nothing but hide in a cave.
On top of that, neither the wizard or girl are that good of people. The wizard wants the spirits to destroy the city, and the girl uses them to do just that.
Sonja doesn't clear her name or protect the city or drive off the spirits. What kind of hero is she supposed to be?
As you can see, Sonja is nowhere near the locations of the climaxes in either story.
The wizard (with no help from Sonja) drives back the army when it attacks the cave, the spirits destroy the city, and the spirits are driven back by a temple virgin who has some sort of magical power.
So, about halfway through the book, Sonja does nothing but hide in a cave.
On top of that, neither the wizard or girl are that good of people. The wizard wants the spirits to destroy the city, and the girl uses them to do just that.
Sonja doesn't clear her name or protect the city or drive off the spirits. What kind of hero is she supposed to be?
As you can see, Sonja is nowhere near the locations of the climaxes in either story.
And that's how you betray your contract with your readers.
No wonder there were only six books. Who the hell wants to read a series about a heroine who doesn't matter?
Viking Bastard
Adventurer
Hyuck hyuck hyuck.mmu1 said:
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Black Omega
First Post
The rape from Covenant is icing on the cake for not liking a book where the protogonist is a unlikable, unsympathetic, uninteresting bastard. Great world, unreadable hero.
The Chung Kuo series lost me far before book eight. When he pulled the clone switcharoo when a main badguy seemed to die, that really annoyed me. Add in a too perfect villain who is so far ahead of the heros it's not even a race. Too many young kids who are far far superior to their elders in all things. It took 4-5 books but the mounting irritations simply drove me away.
The Chung Kuo series lost me far before book eight. When he pulled the clone switcharoo when a main badguy seemed to die, that really annoyed me. Add in a too perfect villain who is so far ahead of the heros it's not even a race. Too many young kids who are far far superior to their elders in all things. It took 4-5 books but the mounting irritations simply drove me away.
Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
As others have said, it's more that the character was so completely unsympathetic. If a hero breaks down and does something dreadful in the heat of the moment, you can forgive it or look past it if necessary, particularly if the hero is cognizant of how awful it was. Heck, there are entire books based on that kind of angst. Not my favorite fiction, but its out there.Storm Raven said:
If, on the other hand, a dreadful person of a protagonist does something dreadful, well, I can see dreadful people doing dreadful things by turning on the news or walking down the street. No need to invest my leisure time in more of it. I like my fantasy fiction to provide me some heroes fighting against evil. It's something increasingly unique to the genre
Personally, I've never been a big one for antiheroes in general. Can't stand Elric. Took me a while to get into the Vlad Taltos books from Brust, because I see a career as an assassin as something of a gaping character flaw, but Vlad does seem to come around to being a more complicated and interesting character over time, at least that's the trajectory he's on where I am in the books now. But that's neither here nor there...
As far as the contract goes... I hadn't really thought of it as a contract before, but the idea fits. Nothing's more irksome than reading 2/3 of a book or watching 3/4 of a movie and then having to mentally retcon the entire thing because the author decided to change the laws of physics. I'm failing to think of specific examples right now, but that might be lack of sleep. Some will come to me with more coffee, I'm sure.
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