Breaking the stereotype of the chaste paladin

[WizarDru]

Well, there are many contradictory or apparently contradictory statements that Christ and his interpreters make about church-state relations. At different times, different ideas on this front have been ascendant. But remember that for most of history, the lines between church and state were very blurred. It was hard to discern where on started and the other stopped. The Holy Roman Empire's creation, the Spanish ownership of the New World -- these were things decreed by the pope. And, of course, until 1870, there were the Papal States in Central Italy. Other versions of Christianity often conflate church and state even more; in the Eastern Orthodox faith, the Emperor or Czar is described as "equal to the apostles."

While there was a fair amount of what we would now call church-state conflict in the medieval world, nobody thought that the solution to this was to disentangle the two things. Such an idea would be beyond people's frame of reference.

That's pretty interesting. The idea of Paladin as both Holy Warrior and Patriot at the same time has a lot of potential.

However, I was thinking at a more basic level: the paladin is a warrior, by profession. Doesn't his very existence somewhat conflict with some of the base tenets of 'turn the other cheek'? Or is the issue that different sects and religions place different emphasis on different translations and passages? I only ask as it seems that, in some ways, the Paladin is a very 'old testament' warrior serving a 'new testament' faith.

 

[shilsen]

I've been planning to play a particularly foul-mouthed, heavy-drinking and womanizing paladin for a while now. Maybe for my next PC.

I've played those before - they were called Fighters, I think.

A hit! A palpable hit!

 

[Bagpuss]

sure and what do you do when a situation comes up where the best thing to do for your family is different than what is for your god.

Then you decide if you want to follow your god or your family. I think there is a biblical story about that exact situation.

Your gods goals and needs are completely separate than that of your families.

Well chances are your family worship the same god, so conflicts are likely to be pretty infrequent.

So yes it would get in the way of your devotion and fairly frequently I suspect.

If you really think so I'ld like some examples.

I certainly think a family that worships the same god and has the same beliefs is less likely to get in your way than the usual adventuring party that most likely follows different gods, and may have conflicting alignments and goals, and yet a Paladin tends to work around those.

 

[NewJeffCT]

For my thought on it, there's nothing against a paladin siring children within a committed relationship, as long as it's committed (commitment being kind of a Lawful thing); but the paladin should make such arrangements that their children and spouses will be cared for if something should befall him. "One night stands" I've personally seen as a Chaotic sort of activity, for many of the reasons others have stated above; depending on outlook, not providing for family in the event of death could be seen as neutral or even evil behavior. I've never seen sex come up for a paladin, casual or no, but then I rarely see sex come up in our games as anything more than "glossing over" the issue anyway. The characters who are known for it, will visit the brothels. Those who don't, won't.

Granted, most of the groups I have gamed with have been all male and sex does not come up very often, except in passing mention like "my rogue looks for a cheap harlot for as much fun as 10gp can buy..." Though, I think a good DM could take advantage of a potentially tempted paladin. I mean, if the paladin truly has a very high CHA, he or she will likely attract the opposite sex quite easily (and, probably a few of the same sex, too!)

However, I had started a thread on another board elsewhere about using a paladin as an adversary for a good-aligned party and got to thinking about what if this adversarial paladin-king decided he would best promote his god's wishes by fathering 25 children (within marriage, of course) to fulfill his interpretation of some prophecy?

 

[Umbran]

I think the important part to remember is that the main "bad sex" in Arthurian mythos is due to the betrayel to King Arthur.

I wonder how you can say that, when Arthur winds up struck down by his own bastard son, Modred. It isn't just the Arthur/Gwen/Lance triad. There are examples of romance causing issues all over Arthurian legend.

Merlin is betrayed by Nimue, and locked in a cave forever. Merlin's no knight, but his philandering certainly has bad consequences, as Merlin isnt there when the bubble gum hits the fan...

Gawain philanders with the wife of the Green Knight, which almost ends very badly.
Gareth has issues with Lynette.
IIRC, Galahad is Lancelot's bastard son.
Lancelot gets involved with Elaine the Fair as he heals from a wound. He then spurns her, and she winds up floating down the the river to Camelot, dead on Lancelot's shield.

Yeah, obviously romance and sex cause the Round Table no issues at all...

 

[fusangite]

However not all actual examples match with simplified stereotypes. Let me draw to your attention the Order of Santiago, a crusading order of warrior-monks who were allowed to marry. Also, let me remind you that confreres on temporary vows fought as brothers with the Templars and Hospitallers without giving up their wives, estates, and dynastic responsibilities.

If the warrior-monks of the Holy Fighting Orders are the achetype of paladins, then yes, most were just as celibate as other Christian monks. But not all.

I think you miss my point Agback. All of my examples are from myth; none are from history. There is only a mythological paladin; there is no historical paladin. Also, as many others have pointed out, the paladin resides in mythic time from the outset -- he comes into being in the Arthurian romances of the 12th-14th centuries.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I think you miss my point Agback. All of my examples are from myth; none are from history. There is only a mythological paladin; there is no historical paladin. Also, as many others have pointed out, the paladin resides in mythic time from the outset -- he comes into being in the Arthurian romances of the 12th-14th centuries.

Just curious as to your sig line... assuming that the distance is correct from Beijing to Japan, it is 12,000 li east of Beijing. I would guess that it is northern Japan. 7,000 li to the north would (I think) put them in Siberia (Wen Schin) and 5,000 li to the East is Alaska (Tahan), which is 20,000 li from Fusang, or I'm assuming some place in western Canada or northwestern US. Am I correct?

However, 5,000 li East to Tahan may just put them in Eastern Siberia, making Fusang Alaska?

 

[kenobi65]

There is only a mythological paladin; there is no historical paladin. Also, as many others have pointed out, the paladin resides in mythic time from the outset -- he comes into being in the Arthurian romances of the 12th-14th centuries.

Quick, someone tell Charlemagne (742-814). He was apparently under the mistaken impression that he had paladins serving him.

 

[Tonguez]

That's pretty interesting. The idea of Paladin as both Holy Warrior and Patriot at the same time has a lot of potential.

However, I was thinking at a more basic level: the paladin is a warrior, by profession. Doesn't his very existence somewhat conflict with some of the base tenets of 'turn the other cheek'? Or is the issue that different sects and religions place different emphasis on different translations and passages? I only ask as it seems that, in some ways, the Paladin is a very 'old testament' warrior serving a 'new testament' faith.

With reference to the earlier comment about Jesus saying "Render unto God that which is Gods and 'Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceasars" there is a branch of 'radical christianity' which says that since ALL THINGS belong to God this statement is a call to Rebellion amongst the Jews.
Similarily when Jesus conferred upon his followers the 'Authority to work amongst lions - trample upon serpents and scorpions etc' it was a militant call to Spirutual warfare

The Paladins mission then should be one of spiritual warfare with his/her campaign being against Spiritual powers (including those in human(oid) form

The Paladin as Patriot need not conflict with this - Kings rule according to the Grace of God, but at no time should the authority of the physical King impinge upon the sanctity of the spiritual Church. A Paldin is part of the Spiritual realm doing battle there however as a mortal s/he must still comply with the laws as imposed in the Physical realm of the King though he need not submit to temporal authority.

Thats how I'd see it

 

[Agback]

I think you miss my point Agback. All of my examples are from myth; none are from history. There is only a mythological paladin; there is no historical paladin. Also, as many others have pointed out, the paladin resides in mythic time from the outset -- he comes into being in the Arthurian romances of the 12th-14th centuries.

Well, if you insist that the paladin is based only on literary figures, and not on the actual example of warriors dedicated to God, then the case for their celibacy and chastity becomes weaker. Among the knights of the Round Table, only Galahad was mentioned as chaste: Lancelot and Perceval had conspicuous flings and most of the rest were married. And among the Twelve Paladins of Charlemagne, only Turpin was unmarried (and he was a bishop).

Regards,


Agback