Breaking the stereotype of the chaste paladin

[NewJeffCTHome]

kind of the reverse of the mentality a couple of decades ago where men were supposed to be somewhat sexually experienced and could attain that experience without social disgrace, but a woman gaining sexual experience was frowned upon (which, of course, makes one wonder where the men got all their experience...)? Just an interesting turn of the tables, I guess.

--The Sigil

I had always assumed in those cultures that when men gained their "experience" it was either through "those women" with bad reputations or through prostitutes.

Are there actual real world examples of cultures where human female promiscuity is socially acceptable but male promiscuity is not in history? I think there are examples in nature, if I recall.

 

[NewJeffCT]

My paladin has the lawful responsibility to have sex with as many women as possible, so that they will give birth to a multitude of pure, righteous souls. And that is good thing in accordance with church doctrine.

Amen.

Is there a guarantee that the children of the paladin will be pure, righteous souls? Could be an interesting twist to a long running campaign - paladin fathers child with what he thought was innocent barmaid, but it was really an evil priestess who is intent on fathering a Dark Child of prophecy via the paladin.

 

[Wraith Form]

What the hell? Who in the world invited the pedantic freaks to hijack the thread by arguing whether chaste or celibate was the more appropriate word to use here when clearly, not only does either one of them work fine, but everyone knew what was meant. Can we get back to the actual topic of the thread now, if you please?

Heh heh heh.

You're funny when you're angry.

Sorta the anti-Hulk.

 

[mmadsen]

If you want to break the "chaste paladin" stereotype, read up Three Hearts and Three Lions. This book was the seminal inspiration for the D&D paladin (down to the special stallion and the cure disease ability), and the paladin here wasn't especially under a vow of chastity... He wasn't womanizing or promiscuous either, though.

As I recall, the moment he began to act on any "impure" thoughts, his magical protection from evil 10' (to use 1E terms) failed, and his supernatural opponents could attack him.

 

[mmadsen]

2nd edition Complete Paladin's Handbook had over a page (I believe) on paladin courtship rules and courtly love. Having this information would seem to me to indicate that paladins can "get in on" like the rest of us.

I think you should research courtly love before you draw the conclusion that paladins can "get in on" like the rest of us. Courtly love is an idealized (fictional) form of love, typically between a young knight and a noble lady -- idealized often to the point of a platonic relationship. It inspires the young knight to noble deeds, but it might very well never be consummated.

 

[Mr. Kaze]

Does anybody agree or disagree with me?

Somebody's probably already said this, but...

This was more-or-less covered in the Quest for Glory IV -- Paladins can't go around doing the entire sexual liberation thing unless you've got a whole lot of contraceptives and no STDs because it's wholly irresponsible of them to go having a bunch of kids (all of whom are loved and wanted, right) because they may be laying down their life for the greater good tomorrow and leaving grieving widows waiting for them to come home -- never mind the example that it sets for the peasants that don't have Divine Health or whatever it's called these days.

If you're not familiar with QfG4, part of a quest is to recover the gear of a long-dead paladin who got killed by a barrow-wight, leaving behind a pregnant fiance who thought that she'd been dumped thus her kid spites anybody who claims to be honorable. You give the gear to the now-grown kid to prove that there is such a thing as honor, yadda yadda blah blah. But really you're thinking to the paladin's ghost "Geez, couldn't you have kept it in your pants until *after* you offed that last barrow wight?"

The short of it is this: Starting a family isn't really compatible with a job which will ultimately result in you dying painfully and possibly alone if you just keep at it long enough.

That said, I fully expect that a retired Paladin would readily start a family -- using Lay Hands on skinned knees instead of going toe-to-toe with a Pit Fiend, you know? But if you've still got a hankering for Pit Fiends, then it's irresponsible to leave all those skinned knees in the lurch.

Above and beyond all that, I don't think that the wild-and-promiscuous(sp?) type would really qualify as a Paladin due to the lawlessness involved. After all, bards are specifically not allowed to be lawful, while Paladins are required to be Lawful Good.

On a related note... http://www.madman.com.au/tism/comp.html

::Kaze (notes that none of the active LotR protagonists settled down for family life until after Sauron was destroyed -- not that they were paladins, but why would paladins behave more recklessly?)

 

[mmadsen]

One of the reasons we know this conflict was real is that it is consistently presented as a tension within the heroes of Arthurian romances. The sexuality of the characters humanizes them; it makes them real; it makes readers identify with them. What it does not do is bring them closer to the ideal for which they strive.

Well said. Arthur and his knights were heroic, but flawed, and their very human actions had consequences. Only Galahad remained pure -- and found the Grail.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I think you should research courtly love before you draw the conclusion that paladins can "get in on" like the rest of us. Courtly love is an idealized (fictional) form of love, typically between a young knight and a noble lady -- idealized often to the point of a platonic relationship. It inspires the young knight to noble deeds, but it might very well never be consummated.

Thanks for quoting that. I'd missed it the first pass through.

The section on courtly love in the Complete Paladin's handbook actually mentions bonuses that a paladin could recieve for being in such a relationship - things like what would be in D&D 3E morale bonuses to saves, attack rolls, whatver.

Those bonuses go away if the paladin marries or sleeps with the object of his courtly love.

Case closed?

 

[NewJeffCTHome]

Well said. Arthur and his knights were heroic, but flawed, and their very human actions had consequences. Only Galahad remained pure -- and found the Grail.

I thought Percival found the Grail, but it's been a while?

 

[NewJeffCTHome]

Somebody's probably already said this, but...

This was more-or-less covered in the Quest for Glory IV -- Paladins can't go around doing the entire sexual liberation thing unless you've got a whole lot of contraceptives and no STDs because it's wholly irresponsible of them to go having a bunch of kids (all of whom are loved and wanted, right) because they may be laying down their life for the greater good tomorrow and leaving grieving widows waiting for them to come home -- never mind the example that it sets for the peasants that don't have Divine Health or whatever it's called these days.

If you're not familiar with QfG4, part of a quest is to recover the gear of a long-dead paladin who got killed by a barrow-wight, leaving behind a pregnant fiance who thought that she'd been dumped thus her kid spites anybody who claims to be honorable. You give the gear to the now-grown kid to prove that there is such a thing as honor, yadda yadda blah blah. But really you're thinking to the paladin's ghost "Geez, couldn't you have kept it in your pants until *after* you offed that last barrow wight?"

The short of it is this: Starting a family isn't really compatible with a job which will ultimately result in you dying painfully and possibly alone if you just keep at it long enough.

That said, I fully expect that a retired Paladin would readily start a family -- using Lay Hands on skinned knees instead of going toe-to-toe with a Pit Fiend, you know? But if you've still got a hankering for Pit Fiends, then it's irresponsible to leave all those skinned knees in the lurch.

Above and beyond all that, I don't think that the wild-and-promiscuous(sp?) type would really qualify as a Paladin due to the lawlessness involved. After all, bards are specifically not allowed to be lawful, while Paladins are required to be Lawful Good.

Some good points. However, as a counter point:
1) As another in this thread pointed out, paladins are immune to disease, so no worry about STDs.
2) In some historical cultures, it was acceptable for both men & women to have several lovers, even if married (Greece, for example, as well as some Polynesian & Eskimo cultures). If a paladin was in a Greek-like society, it may be less lawful for him to stick with 1 woman than it would be for him to sleep around.
3) Any adventurer runs the risk of dying & leaving children without a parent. As does any knight or man-at-arms. Heck, Bob Peasant could get kicked in the neck by a mule and die in the fields if he goes out of the hovel. I think with a paladin, at least, his connection to the church would at least make the nearest cleric of that religion see to the child's upbringing. Would the local thieves' guild do the same?