Brilliant Energy vs. Fortification

Does Brilliant energy ignore Mage armor. It grants an armor bonus but isn't typical armor. Its non-living so fits that bill.

Also would Brilliant energy ignore bonuses granted by other non-living objects? (Defending weapons, Int bonus to ac via bladesinger (requires a sword to do) etc..)

I know what the Technical answer is. yes to first, no to other but are their other opinions.

later
 

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Shallown said:
Does Brilliant energy ignore Mage armor. It grants an armor bonus but isn't typical armor. Its non-living so fits that bill.

Also would Brilliant energy ignore bonuses granted by other non-living objects? (Defending weapons, Int bonus to ac via bladesinger (requires a sword to do) etc..)

I know what the Technical answer is. yes to first, no to other but are their other opinions.

later

It bypasses armor bonuses so it cuts through mage armor. Which is great, because I got tired of my unhittable player in my epic game with his like + 40 mage armor:)
 

James McMurray said:
Do you mean to say that ignoring armor and natural armor is only worth a +4 bonus?

+4 or +5, whatever works. But certainly not more than +5.

In order to get that benefit you have to give up a lot of beanies, a whole lot.

It works great for getting hits in, which is cool, but as it is then it is effectively just a weapon for the dm to use against pc's. There are already tons of things that are like that, might as well put some use into this one.

You can say that it would be broken/overpowered with the new power attack rules. Sure, that is possible, but of course the new power attack rules are fairly dumb anyway so no loss there.

The weapon simply doesnt work in a huge portion of the monstrous population (this is a bad thing for pc's) as it ignores nonliving matter. Now it doesnt list elementals in its description of what is immune, but they would definately qualify as 'nonliving matter', for the same reason that constructs are immune.

Doesnt matter though, from your perspective adding on negation of natural armor is too strong, from my perspective not doing so makes the whole ability worthless except in dm's hands. So either it is 'too powerful' or 'completely useless'. There has to be a happy middle ground somewhere.
 

Scion...Doesnt matter though said:
It's situation and campaign specific. Nothing wrong with that. How valuable is a flaming weapon against critter that are immune?

Allowing all attacks to be touch attacks is insanely powerful.

Note that many, many PCs have significant natural Ac bonuses, especially at higher levels.

Making regular melee attacks into touch attacks is so powerful it's amazing. Even at +5 or more it would be worth it - you essentially would never, ever miss - well, only on a "1."

Only certain very specialized monsters or characters would not get hit every time - monks with a Vow of Poverty, for example.

The power combinations of having a weapon that never misses are mind-boggling.
 

Artoomis said:
It's situation and campaign specific. Nothing wrong with that. How valuable is a flaming weapon against critter that are immune?

Flaming is only a +1, for the +4 (or +5) enhancement cost you could have 4 (or 5) different energy enhancements. What are the chances that enough creatures are immune to all of them to matter?

Still though, in the campaigns where brilliant energy is worth it then the change will do almost nothing. In those where it is not worth it then it will make it worth it. Again, win/win situation.

Artoomis said:
Allowing all attacks to be touch attacks is insanely powerful.

You keep saying this, but it doesnt make a lot of sense really. All it does it take it from a 'use only against the pc's' and turns it into 'it is useful for people to have, but still a tough choice'. Nothing wrong with that. It makes for less wasted space as it is actually useful then.

Artoomis said:
Making regular melee attacks into touch attacks is so powerful it's amazing. Even at +5 or more it would be worth it - you essentially would never, ever miss - well, only on a "1."

Lots of creatures have good touch attack ac's. Even dragons, the king of high natural armor, can have touch ac's in the low 20's without an incredible amount of effort. At that point the first two attacks hit on anything but a 1 sure, but the latter ones need higher. Plus, this is about the only creature where the difference is so huge. It takes a creature that is normally nearly impossible to hit and puts him into the range of possiblities, nothing wrong with that. Especially for such an expensive enhancement with such huge limitations.

Creatures with high dex, deflection bouses, dodge, or any number of other things, of which all are common at higher levels, would be hit only slightly more often. More often enough to warrent the +4? Yes, however you also have to take into account that effectively everything with a 'con -' is immune to the weapon entirely. That is a huge drawback! Some weapons may be entirely 'brilliant', if this happens and you drop it no more weapon. Along with difficulties in sheathing.

Plus, it sheds light like a torch all of the time. That is not great in all situations. At higher level light sources are incredibly easy to get, but not always easy to put out. There is a bit of a drawback there.

Really, like I've said, all it does is make the weapon more reciprocal. Are there situations and campaigns where it could be 'too good'? sure, but as it is right now I have not been in a campaign yet were it was even good enough to take for anyone but the bad guys. That is poor form. For the campaigns where it is too good, which I assume to be the vast minority, they can simply ban it. Much like many people do with vorpal even now.
 

Of course from a psuedo scientific point of view natural armor should be bypassed anyway, it is nonliving matter (in most cases). Otherwise, wooden armor would not be ignored (it was once living matter) in the same what the chitin is not ignored (it was once living matter, but no longer).

;)
 

I'd like to jump in on the BE discussion.

In 3E, a +1 BE weapon was severely inferior to a +5 weapon primarily because of its DR problems and because you'd need to Power Attack for 4 just to make up the lost damage. So, the break-even point was at least a +8 Armor AC. How many people have an 8 or higher for armor? Those with heavy armor, or those that used shields. As it was, this was a minority, even among humanoid opponents. So, there were only a few cases where BE would be better than straight enhancement, and these were easily countered by the fact that the weapon became useless against Undead or Constructs.

(Our DM gave a BE weapon as loot one time, intended for one player who really needed a new weapon. It sucked so hard that we ended up rewriting the BE rules altogether.)

In 3.5E, shields now give a different bonus, a Shield AC bonus, so as written, Brilliant Energy no longer bypasses shields. This means that the only way BE is better than 4 more Enhancement is if the target is wearing heavy armor or a lighter armor with a large enhancement bonus. (Note: if you house-rule BE to bypass shields, then it's actually slightly better than it was in 3E thanks to the DR/magic change and the new 2-for-1 Power Attack)

That being said, allowing it to bypass Natural Armor entirely would be way too good, IMO. My last character was a Psychic Warrior with the Deep Impact feat (for 5 power points, one weapon attack became a touch attack; she had about 50 pp per day), and I can tell you right now, even having one or two touch attacks per day makes a huge difference. Against most enemies, no big deal, but there's always some sort of Boss monster out there with a huge AC. Being able to automatically hit with one or two single attacks was critical in some of our fights. And yes, it IS basically an auto-hit; no real amount of Deflection or DEX AC can cause me to miss a Dragon with a touch attack, if I'm the right level to be fighting it. I'd price a BE-like ability that included Natural AC at more like a +6 ability (requiring Epic rules).

Long ago, though, IMC we changed BE to just cut Armor and Natural Armor AC in half, so it's not quite a touch attack, and have the base weapon still work against undead and constructs.
 

Scion said:
Still though, in the campaigns where brilliant energy is worth it then the change will do almost nothing. In those where it is not worth it then it will make it worth it. Again, win/win situation.
Almost nothing? Turning someone's AC from a 40 to a 20 is "almost nothing". That's odd, it looks like an extra 10+ points of power attack damage to me.

You keep saying this, but it doesnt make a lot of sense really. All it does it take it from a 'use only against the pc's' and turns it into 'it is useful for people to have, but still a tough choice'. Nothing wrong with that. It makes for less wasted space as it is actually useful then.
Actually it makes it a must have item. High CR creatures are frequently a challenge because they can't just be power attacked into oblivion by the party fighter. Let's take the Tarrasque as an example, he's a fairly scary CR 20 critter. AC: 35. Touch AC: 5. At 20th level that's an extra 100 points of damage per round that the fighter will be able to output with a full attack.

Another example: Great Wyrm Red Dragon. AC: 41. Touch AC: 2. Yet another major difference.

Now we'll step away from the reqlly big critters and look at things that have less of their offense put intot heir size (since that's where the big AC penalties come from).

Balor: AC 36 (with Unholy Aura). Touch AC 20 (with unholy aura).
Pit Fiend: AC 40. Touch AC 17.

Need I continue? Alowing touch attacks with a weapon is far from "almost nothing." There is the downside that the weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, or items. So what? Get yourself a sun blade backup for undead, and an adamntium +1 construct bane weapon for constructs and you'll be just fine, but you'll be dealing an extra 10-40 damage against most foes because of your increased abilty to power attack.

Lots of creatures have good touch attack ac's. Even dragons, the king of high natural armor, can have touch ac's in the low 20's without an incredible amount of effort. At that point the first two attacks hit on anything but a 1 sure, but the latter ones need higher. Plus, this is about the only creature where the difference is so huge. It takes a creature that is normally nearly impossible to hit and puts him into the range of possiblities, nothing wrong with that. Especially for such an expensive enhancement with such huge limitations.
Have you seen the average attack bonuses for high level fighters? An AC of 20 means that the chances of missing with all but the last attack are pretty darned slim. And AC 40 is not "nearly impossible to hit" to begin with.

Creatures with high dex, deflection bouses, dodge, or any number of other things, of which all are common at higher levels, would be hit only slightly more often. More often enough to warrent the +4? Yes, however you also have to take into account that effectively everything with a 'con -' is immune to the weapon entirely.
Hence the idea of a backup weapon.

That is a huge drawback! Some weapons may be entirely 'brilliant', if this happens and you drop it no more weapon. Along with difficulties in sheathing.
Huh? I don't see anywhere in the item description that says you can't sheathe a briliant energy weapon or that if you drop it is disappears. Yeah, if you toss in house rules that make weapons disappear, you'll probably have to up the power level on them. :)

Plus, it sheds light like a torch all of the time. That is not great in all situations. At higher level light sources are incredibly easy to get, but not always easy to put out. There is a bit of a drawback there.
Many magical swords that are found will shed light, and can't be put out. How is Brilliant any different from those? If you put it in a sheathe, its light is going to be blocked, just like with any other weapon.

Really, like I've said, all it does is make the weapon more reciprocal. Are there situations and campaigns where it could be 'too good'? sure, but as it is right now I have not been in a campaign yet were it was even good enough to take for anyone but the bad guys. That is poor form. For the campaigns where it is too good, which I assume to be the vast minority, they can simply ban it. Much like many people do with vorpal even now.
Come play in one of my campaigns at some point. Generally its humanoid foes that are the movers and the shakers, alongside their extraplanar or undead allies. A brilliant energy weapon will be useful about 60% of the time, not so useless about 20% of the time, and completely useless the other 20%.

Who bans vorpal now? Nobody I know. And I find it hard to imagaine a group that would contemplating allowing Briallant Energy to ignore natural armor but be worried about the less than one in twenty chance of instant death that vorpal grants.
 

Scion said:
Like I said, all it changes is that natural armor is also ignored. Which all that does is basically make the weapon enhancement more reciprocal between the pc's and the opponents.
Not entirely correct.

Brilliant Energy ignores physical armor and shields. A [force] effect - such as that produced by the Mage Armor spell, the Shield Spell, or Bracers of Armor, is not currently ignored.

Making the Brilliant Energy weapon a Touch Attack would add that category of defense to what the weapon can ignore.
 

::shrugs:: all I really want taken off of the list is natural armor of things that work for it.

It makes real world sense (which hardly matters in d&d of course)

Plus it makes it actually useful in games for pc's.

While at the same time not really increasing it to incredible proportions.

So far there are a lot of people saying, 'well, obviously it would be overpowered' and to that my response is, ', obviously it would not be overpowered'.

The change would mainly make it useful against things that the pc's actually go up against while still being just as useful, but not really any more so, for the npc's.

With the fact that such a large portion of the creatures pc's go up against simply being able to ignore the weapon then it should get some beanies. The current beanies relegate it to 'completely useless for pc's except in an incredibly small number of cases'. Which is the same as being useless most of the time.

Currently = useless
my change = not useless, and not overpowered

Dragons will still be top dog, but this will knock their ac's down to reasonable levels. At a very large price of course.
 

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