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Bring back the Comic Code!

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BiggusGeekus said:
So you're equating your dislike of Elminster with other's dislike of seeing evil as something to be dispised?
No, he's saying that only because he dislikes Elminster he isn't shouting "NOONE PLAY WITH ELMINSTER ANY MORE", and neither he is suggesting to forbid using Elminster in a published product. He's saying that if you dislike something, you don't have the right to forbid everyone else from enjoying it.

The Code is censorship of the worst kind.
 

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CrusaderX said:


As someone who's been reading comics for over 25 years, I have to say that the best Marvel and DC comics I've ever read, by far, were issues with the code on them. Miller's Daredevil? Simonson's Thor? Byrne's Fantastic Four? Claremont's X-Men first run? All of these were code-approved books. None of them suffered because of the code. And all of them clearly outshine anything being done at today's codeless Marvel.

Of course, art is subjective, so your milage may vary.

You have got to be kidding me. Miller's Daredevil? Miller HATES the code. He was one of the leading forces opposing the code, and those Daredevil issues probably didn't meet the code. Claremont? The code was cited as one of his reasons for leaving the industry to write books. Bryne? He too left to form his own company, WITHOUT the comics code. You are talking about the very people who opposed the code!

In addition, have you missed comics for the last decade? From Hell? Road to Perdition? Men in Black? Watchmen? Kingdom Come? Batman Year One? Lone Wolf? Do any of these ring a bell? The reason the "best" comic books had the CCA on them was because for the longest time (including the 1980's decade you are referring to) all comics HAD to have the code (or be run out of business). Of course the best comics had the code - the ONLY comics had the code. That's also the reason all your favorite comics were superheros - that genre was one of the only ones able to publish under the code. Crime, mystery, horror, romance, westerns, these were all genres killed by the code. But for the code, your favorite comic very likley would have been from a non-superhero genre, and better quality (since so many of the best writers refused to write while under the code).
 

Angelsboi said:

No. Im rational and reasonable.

All i have to say to those who are upset, grow up. Dont use it.
/rant

Interesting how you position your argument. Those who do not hold your position are irrational and unreasonable. Those who do not like so-called "mature" content are not "grown".

Strangely, many people on this board hold the position that "mature" content is a misnomer. One does not need graphic descriptions of gore to be "grown up".

One also does not need to roleplay evil acts to be grown up either.
 

Chun-tzu said:
I don't like the Comic Book Authority. In fact, I'm opposed to most forms of censorship.

I'm also opposed to censorship. But that word is thrown around a lot these days when it doesn't always apply.

Editing is not censorship. Removing profanity is not censorship. And limiting the range of expression about a given concept is not censorship as long as the creator can still express that idea.

In many cases, I've seen artists use "adult" material not because they needed it to transmit their message, but rather to shock. And if one is just going for shock value, than not much of a statement is being made.

The old poet, Lord Byron, had a wonderful array of ideas and experiences that paled anything we see in the mainstream movies today. Yet he was able to write about it without profanity or shock value. Though I confess, his contemporaries found the material shocking. But I think that only underscores my point, an artist is typically less limited by these conventions than often stated.
 

Mistwell said:

Claremont? The code was cited as one of his reasons for leaving the industry to write books. Bryne? He too left to form his own company, WITHOUT the comics code. You are talking about the very people who opposed the code!

This would seem to prove the point. The code did not prevent these writers from doing good work. The fact that the writer does not remember or consider their post code work to be classic also says something about the lack of need for the graphic violence.
 

BiggusGeekus said:
Editing is not censorship. Removing profanity is not censorship. And limiting the range of expression about a given concept is not censorship as long as the creator can still express that idea.

Actualy, those first two, if done WITHOUT the permission of the author, ARE censorship.

The second is still a form of it, if harder to see... just because you are allowed to express a core idea in another form doesn't mean it's not censorship, it's just a limited version thereof... the core of the issue, of course, still being that you cannot express your idea in the way you truely desired.
 

SemperJase said:


This would seem to prove the point. The code did not prevent these writers from doing good work. The fact that the writer does not remember or consider their post code work to be classic also says something about the lack of need for the graphic violence.

Doesn't "prove the point" unless you can convince me that the works in question wouldn't have been better without the code, or at the very least would have been worse with it.
 

Angelsboi said:
what i meant by my comment is not daggling it in ones face. Im saying i hate FR. Dont dangle how great Dritz and Elminster is. If you wanna play and use them, fine by me.

its the EXACT same thing you are syaing Biggus. i dont think i got it clear enough im afraid.

Gotcha! I'm glad to see we're in agreement in spirit, though we may disagree about the more tangible specifics. :)
 

As a parent with children who could be affected by the Great Demons of Evil in our society I am against censorship.

Be it D&D, comics, music, or anything else.

Even if there is a code that is supposed to protect my children I do my own research and my own previews. I decide what they see and take my responsibility as a parent quite literally.

I'm happy that there is a Book of Vile Darkness coming out. I don't think it has been shoved in my face, as I'm not a Dragon subscriber (I gave it up around the debut of 3E, there was just nothing I could use in my games so I saved my money for D20 stuff). I think that the Book of Exalted Deeds would have been a great companion to this, but what do I know?

There is a great market for games with mature themes, even in D&D. Why should WOTC ignore this market and potential source of revenue? Why should they let the other D20 people have it? So long as they indicate that it's not the Smurfs, it's a good addition to their line.
 

Our gaming hobby can be played at several different levels. You can play light-hearted pulpy fun, along the lines of your average Saturday morning cartoon, where the DM just has to make sure that the bad guys all either get arrested or they run away to be naughty again another day.

You have the middle ground, which D&D usually fits into, where it's okay for the heroes to kill an entire race of entities, such as orcs, simply because they're assumed to be 'evil.' However, the most evil thing they do is maybe raid or pillage a village from time to time, no worse than the Gauls. If you'd lived among the Gauls, you might not have thought them extremely charitable or nice, but they weren't so vicious and vile that they deserved to be cut down on sight. In many D&D games, IMHO, player characters already act with an impunity and self-righteousness far more evil than you will find in this upcoming book. Sure, it's heroic to fight evil, but in the average D&D game, orcs and their ilk aren't evil villains; they're simply monsters to be mowed through.

Finally, you have the type of games that the BoVD is intended for. Sure, the type of monster-slaying you see in normal D&D is cool and heroic (like something out of Beowulf and St. George and the Dragon), but it's somewhat trite heroism. In more serious games, the fight against evil is more emotionally-grounded. Villains are developed not simply by them showing up and twirling their mustaches (no offense, Sagiro ;)), but by having motivations that aren't clear-cut. In a game where even the bad guys might be redeemed, it takes quite a bit to convince the heroes to slay with impunity.

Let me use my own game as an example. First, let me say that I may have mismatched my plot to the playing style of the group, sadly. The PCs are in the middle of a war that involves a large human empire, a smaller human kingdom, two rival Elvish nations, and a large confederacy of Orcish tribes. Out of all the PCs, at least one is either a member of one of those groups, or allied with them. Before the war started up, there were some tensions, but no one in the party could look at any one group and say, "They're evil; let's kill 'em."

And now, the various groups have gone to war over the things that people go to war over, and the PCs are left in a rut, not willing to ally with any single side, since they don't want to fight any of them.

So who's the villain out of this? The evil bastard who plans to clean up after the smoke clears, of course. He set up events and arranged assassinations and hoaxes to make sure everyone would begin killing each other. After the fighting ends, he plans to take over himself. This villain is evil, in my opinion, and to make sure the PCs realize this too (so they'll want to stop him), I would not shy away from using something from the BoVD in one of the villain's plans. So far he's been using a neutral force of priests to 'bless' the bodies of the dead from all sides, so that on a given day, all of the bodies will arise as undead.

If the PCs defeat him, then they'll be heroes, not simply because they stopped the bad thing from hurting innocents, but because they themselves weren't swept up into the violence like everyone else. And defeating a sentient, calculating evil is always more gratifying that beating an unthinking brute of a foe.

That is why the Book of Vile Darkness will be finding a place on my shelf.
 

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