Bring D&D Immortals to 5e

MPA2000

Visitor
Okay before this gets moved to a different thread, I think this stands alone because I am referring to the new Immortal rules, not the old BECMI rules referred to on this website. In addition some of the threads refer to Highlander type Immortals.

The Immortal set I am referring to from here forward were the revised rules by Aaron Allston.

I have read over the 5e rules, spells and character classes, and I just don't see anyway to convert the Immortals over, and still keep their uniqueness. They would just be another group of Celestials. If that is the term they are going to use for gods in 5e. Since the only god currently with stats is Tiamat and they call her a "Gargantuan Fiend".

Luckily system does mention Mystara as one of many worlds that exist in the Multiverse, along with Greyhawk etc. There is a "Conversion to 5th Edition" publication to bring BECM characters over to 5e. Level-wise it is simple, just bring them over but max Level that come over is 20 (page 1). Sorry to your 28th level MU. After that it is just a matter of adhering the equipment and abilities of 5e.

But the Immortals should not be converted directly over unless they keep their basic powers and abilities. While Immortals have levels, they are actually HD driven like monsters. So we can bring them over at their current HD (pg 3) and then make some minor conversions to ability scores (30 max) attack rolls, armor class etc. (pg4). Basic monsters aren't much different statwise than their AD&D counterparts.

So let's dabble and see how this could work with how an Initiate Immortal (the lowest) who just ascended an Immortal, looks like in 5e.



BASIC5e
Alignment (any) Alignment (any)
15 HD15HD
Power Points 300Power Points ?
AC 0 AC 19 (i.e. 19-0)
HP 75HP 75
No. Attacks 2No. Attacks 2
Damage/attack 2d6Damage/attack 2d6
Attack Mod (varies by weapon/strengthAttack Mod +9 (HD/2 +2) No higher than +12
Saving Throw (varies by attack)DC 15 (8+ HD/2) No higher than 20





Power is what Immortals use to cast spell effects at will any number of times a day.
An Immortals natural unarmed attacks are equivalent to +5 magical items (+4 in Fifth Edition).

So that solves the stat part. Now for the powers and abilities.

BASIC5e
Anti-Magic 50%Anti-Magic 50%
Immune to Mortal Magic Immune to Mortal Magic
Only hit by +5 Mortal weaponsOnly hit by +4 Mortal weapons
Takes Minimum damage from mortalsMinimum damage from mortals
Artifacts do normal damageImmortal/god made Artifacts/legendary items do normal damage
Can use any spell of any spell caster classCan use any Cantric or spell of any spell caster class, school etc.
Aura power (fear, charm, paralyze effect)Aura power (fear, charm, paralyze effect)



Immortals have constant AM field around them doesn't affect their own magic items or spells. The % is for success.
Immortals cannot be harmed by any magic of mortal origin (spells, items, dragons breath etc.).
+3 is the highest magical weapon, but some legendary weapons can be as high as +4.
Mortals can only hit an Immortal with a +4 weapon, and then only does the minimum die of damage.
Artifacts/Legendary weapons created by Immortals/gods can only affect an Immortal

Immortals aura affects only mortals to a number equal to their Wisdom bonus. No bonuses to their saving throws

Other things to consider: Immortals can spend Power Points (PP) for permanent or temporary effect. So they can create any magical item or artifact/legendary item. They change forms to an non-corporeal form that is immune to magic attacks from anything god or otherwise, but subject to Power attacks from other Immortals. Immortals can also create mortal identities so they can roam the Prime Plane unnoticed. They can be any race, class or level the Immortal desires. Mortals have -4 on any save against an Immortal magic. Not sure how that would translate to 5e.

Immortals also have their own spells, like gods, something only they spells that they know, such as Reduce Saving throw. The immortal can spend PP to reduce a mortal's saving throw versus any of his spells equal to 2 PP per -1 reduction. Not sure how that would work in 5e.

I will revisit the rules and do so further tinkering.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Okay before this gets moved to a different thread, I think this stands alone because I am referring to the new Immortal rules, not the old BECMI rules referred to on this website. In addition some of the threads refer to Highlander type Immortals.

The Immortal set I am referring to from here forward were the revised rules by Aaron Allston.

I have read over the 5e rules, spells and character classes, and I just don't see anyway to convert the Immortals over, and still keep their uniqueness. They would just be another group of Celestials. If that is the term they are going to use for gods in 5e. Since the only god currently with stats is Tiamat and they call her a "Gargantuan Fiend".

Luckily system does mention Mystara as one of many worlds that exist in the Multiverse, along with Greyhawk etc. There is a "Conversion to 5th Edition" publication to bring BECM characters over to 5e. Level-wise it is simple, just bring them over but max Level that come over is 20 (page 1). Sorry to your 28th level MU. After that it is just a matter of adhering the equipment and abilities of 5e.

But the Immortals should not be converted directly over unless they keep their basic powers and abilities. While Immortals have levels, they are actually HD driven like monsters. So we can bring them over at their current HD (pg 3) and then make some minor conversions to ability scores (30 max) attack rolls, armor class etc. (pg4). Basic monsters aren't much different statwise than their AD&D counterparts.

So let's dabble and see how this could work with how an Initiate Immortal (the lowest) who just ascended an Immortal, looks like in 5e.



BASIC5e
Alignment (any) Alignment (any)
15 HD15HD
Power Points 300Power Points ?
AC 0 AC 19 (i.e. 19-0)
HP 75HP 75
No. Attacks 2No. Attacks 2
Damage/attack 2d6Damage/attack 2d6
Attack Mod (varies by weapon/strengthAttack Mod +9 (HD/2 +2) No higher than +12
Saving Throw (varies by attack)DC 15 (8+ HD/2) No higher than 20





Power is what Immortals use to cast spell effects at will any number of times a day.
An Immortals natural unarmed attacks are equivalent to +5 magical items (+4 in Fifth Edition).

So that solves the stat part. Now for the powers and abilities.

BASIC5e
Anti-Magic 50%Anti-Magic 50%
Immune to Mortal Magic Immune to Mortal Magic
Only hit by +5 Mortal weaponsOnly hit by +4 Mortal weapons
Takes Minimum damage from mortalsMinimum damage from mortals
Artifacts do normal damageImmortal/god made Artifacts/legendary items do normal damage
Can use any spell of any spell caster classCan use any Cantric or spell of any spell caster class, school etc.
Aura power (fear, charm, paralyze effect)Aura power (fear, charm, paralyze effect)



Immortals have constant AM field around them doesn't affect their own magic items or spells. The % is for success.
Immortals cannot be harmed by any magic of mortal origin (spells, items, dragons breath etc.).
+3 is the highest magical weapon, but some legendary weapons can be as high as +4.
Mortals can only hit an Immortal with a +4 weapon, and then only does the minimum die of damage.
Artifacts/Legendary weapons created by Immortals/gods can only affect an Immortal

Immortals aura affects only mortals to a number equal to their Wisdom bonus. No bonuses to their saving throws

Other things to consider: Immortals can spend Power Points (PP) for permanent or temporary effect. So they can create any magical item or artifact/legendary item. They change forms to an non-corporeal form that is immune to magic attacks from anything god or otherwise, but subject to Power attacks from other Immortals. Immortals can also create mortal identities so they can roam the Prime Plane unnoticed. They can be any race, class or level the Immortal desires. Mortals have -4 on any save against an Immortal magic. Not sure how that would translate to 5e.

Immortals also have their own spells, like gods, something only they spells that they know, such as Reduce Saving throw. The immortal can spend PP to reduce a mortal's saving throw versus any of his spells equal to 2 PP per -1 reduction. Not sure how that would work in 5e.

I will revisit the rules and do so further tinkering.
I am a bit confused as you initial stated (I thought) that this wasn't the "Immortals" from BECMI, then you went on to describe the "Immortals" from BECMI. Am I missing something?

FYI, the BECMI "Immortals" has already been converted to 5e. It is free (on drive-thru-rpg) and called the Immortals Companion: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/194619/Immortals-Companion

I has some of M as well as I from BECMI.

I am also working on my own coversion, with some unique for 5e stuff over here: 5e Immortal Rules
 

Sadras

Adventurer
I am a bit confused as you initial stated (I thought) that this wasn't the "Immortals" from BECMI, then you went on to describe the "Immortals" from BECMI. Am I missing something?

FYI, the BECMI "Immortals" has already been converted to 5e. It is free (on drive-thru-rpg) and called the Immortals Companion: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/194619/Immortals-Companion

I has some of M as well as I from BECMI.

I am also working on my own coversion, with some unique for 5e stuff over here: 5e Immortal Rules
Perhaps the BECMI Immortals (Set 5 by Frank Mentzer) differed with the Wrath of the Immortals Boxed Set (Aaron Alston) - I haven't looked into the Immortal mechanics myself. The information regarding the ideas about Dimensions and the Multiverse were definitely different between the two sets. I would not be surprised if Aaron had updated/changed the Immortal mechanics as the OP claims.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Perhaps the BECMI Immortals (Set 5 by Frank Mentzer) differed with the Wrath of the Immortals Boxed Set (Aaron Alston) - I haven't looked into the Immortal mechanics myself. The information regarding the ideas about Dimensions and the Multiverse were definitely different between the two sets. I would not be surprised if Aaron had updated/changed the Immortal mechanics as the OP claims.
My recollection is the Wrath of Immortals was supposed to be playable with the BECMI "Immortals" rules, but I could be mistaken.
 

dave2008

Legend
I didn't not describe Immortals from the original set at all. Different creatures.
Yes you did.

Anti-magic: check
Power Points: check
Aura: check
Can cast any spell: check
starting HP 75: check

Those are all from the BECMI "Player's Guide to Immortals"

The Aaron Allston rules are an update of the BECMI rules, so by default, if you are talking about Wrath of Immortals, you are also talking about "Immortals" to some degree. Now I didn't previously realize that an update set of rules had been published so I am interested to see what it has. Nonetheless, what you have written so far is mostly right of the BECMI immortals.
 

dave2008

Legend
No the issue I think you have, and I am also having with my own conversion, is how to make it a 5e version of the Immortal rules. Right not it looks like you are basically copying the rules directly. But I feel they should be translated through a 5e filter if you will. So it is recognizable as 5e, but also something different. That is what I am struggling with.

However you want to approach it - good luck!

FYI, I found a 3.5e update to Codex of the Immortals on the web, it might be helpful.
 

MPA2000

Visitor
Yes you did.

Anti-magic: check
Power Points: check
Aura: check
Can cast any spell: check
starting HP 75: check

Those are all from the BECMI "Player's Guide to Immortals"

The Aaron Allston rules are an update of the BECMI rules, so by default, if you are talking about Wrath of Immortals, you are also talking about "Immortals" to some degree. Now I didn't previously realize that an update set of rules had been published so I am interested to see what it has. Nonetheless, what you have written so far is mostly right of the BECMI immortals.
The new Immortal rules revised and replaced almost all of old rules. I sincerely hope that you are just needing clarification.

Power points: Yes they both have them. The rules previously had more power points given to PC who's mortal characters were MU's, the revised rules gave them all the same amount as indicated above. In addition, the old rules allowed Power Attacks on Immortal ability scores and save against death against any creature who can't use PP. The new rules nixed both of those rules.

Can cast any spell: Under the old rules the old rules each spell cost the Immortal a number of PP depending on the level of the spell, as well as if that spell was diametric to it's alignment (equivalent to Elemental dominance). The new rules got rid of diametric rule and allowed the immortal to spend a set amount PP to enable them to cast any spell any number of times a day with no further cost.

HP 75: Under the old rules the Initiate didn't have any PP until he became a Novice, as this was a "training period". The new rules scrapped the training period and all new immortals start off with the template I described above.

If you are looking at the the old rules, you will see that 80% of the rules were revised and replaced. I didn't even get into all of the other additional things, because of time and desire.
 

dave2008

Legend
The new Immortal rules revised and replaced almost all of old rules. I sincerely hope that you are just needing clarification.

Power points: Yes they both have them. The rules previously had more power points given to PC who's mortal characters were MU's, the revised rules gave them all the same amount as indicated above. In addition, the old rules allowed Power Attacks on Immortal ability scores and save against death against any creature who can't use PP. The new rules nixed both of those rules.

Can cast any spell: Under the old rules the old rules each spell cost the Immortal a number of PP depending on the level of the spell, as well as if that spell was diametric to it's alignment (equivalent to Elemental dominance). The new rules got rid of diametric rule and allowed the immortal to spend a set amount PP to enable them to cast any spell any number of times a day with no further cost.

HP 75: Under the old rules the Initiate didn't have any PP until he became a Novice, as this was a "training period". The new rules scrapped the training period and all new immortals start off with the template I described above.

If you are looking at the the old rules, you will see that 80% of the rules were revised and replaced. I didn't even get into all of the other additional things, because of time and desire.
I made a few calls and I am picking up a copy of Wrath tonight or tomorrow :)

That being said, from your description it seems like mostly cosmetic changes. However, it sounds like they simplified the rules, which is more like 5e, so I like that. Maybe it will make my conversion easier! Thank you for the advice!
 

ccs

39th lv DM

Mistwell

Hero
Nice. 1st, criticize the OP because there's already a conversion up on Drive-Thu. Then plug your own effort....
How is "FYI" a criticism? How is giving away for free something you've put work into to help with an issue you're asking about a bad thing?
 

dave2008

Legend
Nice. 1st, criticize the OP because there's already a conversion up on Drive-Thu. Then plug your own effort....
On both accounts I'm trying to help, not criticize. As I am trying to do something similar to the OP I feel we could share Ideas. I wanted to make him/her aware of other efforts in the same area. I am looking at the free conversion as I do my own and I thought he/she might want to as well.

I simply questioned the premise that he/she wasn't converting the BECMI Immortals, which it appeared he/she was. I have since realized he/she is talking about the update to the BECMI Immortals - "The Codex of Immortals," which I was unfamiliar with.

Now in a later post I did point out that it appears he/she is doing a simple one to one conversion and I suggest trying to make it more like 5e. But isn't that the reason you post on a forum - to get criticism, suggestions, and share ideas? What can you add to the conversation?
 

MPA2000

Visitor
Holy Cow, I had no idea they put all that together in one 5E book. I literally just paid a fair amount to get the old "Companion Set" rules as my campaign is about the party carving out a dominion in the Wild West of the campaign world. This could have saved me some money and gotten me more. So cool.
I believe this is only pertaining Immortal player character only, and how he wrapped around some of the ideas from the old Companion set (and other publications) to fit the Immortals. Makes sense since Immortals are represented on earth by Kings and Emperors.

The rules mostly cover material from the old Companion and Immortal ruleset, as opposed to the later revised rules from Rules Cyclopedia and/or Wrath of the Immortals. Still a great effort and motivation to pursue such a project.
 

dave2008

Legend
Okay before this gets moved to a different thread, I think this stands alone because I am referring to the new Immortal rules, not the old BECMI rules referred to on this website. In addition some of the threads refer to Highlander type Immortals.

The Immortal set I am referring to from here forward were the revised rules by Aaron Allston.

I have read over the 5e rules, spells and character classes, and I just don't see anyway to convert the Immortals over, and still keep their uniqueness. They would just be another group of Celestials. If that is the term they are going to use for gods in 5e. Since the only god currently with stats is Tiamat and they call her a "Gargantuan Fiend".

Luckily system does mention Mystara as one of many worlds that exist in the Multiverse, along with Greyhawk etc. There is a "Conversion to 5th Edition" publication to bring BECM characters over to 5e. Level-wise it is simple, just bring them over but max Level that come over is 20 (page 1). Sorry to your 28th level MU. After that it is just a matter of adhering the equipment and abilities of 5e.

But the Immortals should not be converted directly over unless they keep their basic powers and abilities. While Immortals have levels, they are actually HD driven like monsters. So we can bring them over at their current HD (pg 3) and then make some minor conversions to ability scores (30 max) attack rolls, armor class etc. (pg4). Basic monsters aren't much different statwise than their AD&D counterparts.

So let's dabble and see how this could work with how an Initiate Immortal (the lowest) who just ascended an Immortal, looks like in 5e.



BASIC5e
Alignment (any)Alignment (any)
15 HD15HD
Power Points 300Power Points ?
AC 0AC 19 (i.e. 19-0)
HP 75HP 75
No. Attacks 2No. Attacks 2
Damage/attack 2d6Damage/attack 2d6
Attack Mod (varies by weapon/strengthAttack Mod +9 (HD/2 +2) No higher than +12
Saving Throw (varies by attack)DC 15 (8+ HD/2) No higher than 20




Power is what Immortals use to cast spell effects at will any number of times a day.
An Immortals natural unarmed attacks are equivalent to +5 magical items (+4 in Fifth Edition).

So that solves the stat part. Now for the powers and abilities.

BASIC5e
Anti-Magic 50%Anti-Magic 50%
Immune to Mortal MagicImmune to Mortal Magic
Only hit by +5 Mortal weaponsOnly hit by +4 Mortal weapons
Takes Minimum damage from mortalsMinimum damage from mortals
Artifacts do normal damageImmortal/god made Artifacts/legendary items do normal damage
Can use any spell of any spell caster classCan use any Cantric or spell of any spell caster class, school etc.
Aura power (fear, charm, paralyze effect)Aura power (fear, charm, paralyze effect)


Immortals have constant AM field around them doesn't affect their own magic items or spells. The % is for success.
Immortals cannot be harmed by any magic of mortal origin (spells, items, dragons breath etc.).
+3 is the highest magical weapon, but some legendary weapons can be as high as +4.
Mortals can only hit an Immortal with a +4 weapon, and then only does the minimum die of damage.
Artifacts/Legendary weapons created by Immortals/gods can only affect an Immortal

Immortals aura affects only mortals to a number equal to their Wisdom bonus. No bonuses to their saving throws

Other things to consider: Immortals can spend Power Points (PP) for permanent or temporary effect. So they can create any magical item or artifact/legendary item. They change forms to an non-corporeal form that is immune to magic attacks from anything god or otherwise, but subject to Power attacks from other Immortals. Immortals can also create mortal identities so they can roam the Prime Plane unnoticed. They can be any race, class or level the Immortal desires. Mortals have -4 on any save against an Immortal magic. Not sure how that would translate to 5e.

Immortals also have their own spells, like gods, something only they spells that they know, such as Reduce Saving throw. The immortal can spend PP to reduce a mortal's saving throw versus any of his spells equal to 2 PP per -1 reduction. Not sure how that would work in 5e.

I will revisit the rules and do so further tinkering.
Not sure where you are in your conversion, but I was cleaning out my "watch" list and noticed this thread again. A few more thoughts after a quick read:

HD: I would suggest 25, but at least 20 as that is the number the have as 20th level mortals.

HP: I would suggest 200 (25d8) as a baseline. Not sure if you add CON to it or not. That is definitely the standard for 5e and I think it makes sense. So your starting HP would be between 200-525.

Anti-magic: for 5e I would just give them the Magic Resistance trait. As you level up you could then modify this to the Limited Magic Immunity trait and increase the spell level immunity as you level.

Mortal Magic: I would drop this in 5e and just go with my suggestion for Anti-magic.

Weapon Immunity: Start with Immunity to nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage. You could then increase this resistance by rarity (ex. Immunity to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage that is nonmagical or from a Rare or lesser magic item. Also, correct me if I am wrong but wasn't +5 the best bonus in BECMI? So shouldn't it by +3 for 5e if you wanted a direct translation?
 

Enrico Poli1

Explorer
I would suggest:

- In Mystara, mortals can become Immortals (god-like beings), following some Paths to Immortality (Polymath, Paragon, Dynast, Epic Hero)

- Their scores as Immortals are comparabile to those of gods in other settings (you can not defeat one under normal circumstances)

- The gods/Immortals can take avatars, with scores similar to 20th Lvl characters, plus some goodies (CR 21-30).
 

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