Broadsword

[Dogbrain]

I've seen it in Romeo and Juliet.

What scene? Which edition?

The Folio doesn't have it or any version of "broadsword" (or even "broad sword") in the original spelling. It has "long sword" once.

Quarto 2 agrees with the Folio.

Quarto 1 doesn't even have "long sword".

 

[Dogbrain]

I've seen it in Romeo and Juliet.

What scene? Which edition?

The Folio doesn't have it or any version of "broadsword" (or even "broad sword") in the original or modern spellings. It has "long sword" once.

Quarto 2 agrees with the Folio.

Quarto 1 doesn't even have "long sword".

 

[Dogbrain]

Perhaps the mass of a weapon isn't the only factor that influences the damage caused by a weapon? Perhaps it's also best not to get too hung up on history, when the fantasy literature D&D draws upon isn't that hung up on it either.

In anycase, there is room for a sword that acts as a [1d8 (19-20/x20) Piercing Martial Weapon] in the weapons list. Could you suggest an alternative name for it than an epee?

In that case, if history doesn't mean a darn thing, I suggest you call it a yargfoogie or a sneegielopple.

 

[mmadsen]

Although he can get a bit pendantic (high-falutin' even), I suggest John Clements' Broadsword or Broad Sword? Settling the Question of What’s in a Name. A few excerpts:

The term "broadsword" is today popularly applied as a generic synonym for Medieval swords or freely used to refer for any long, wide military blade. [...] The familiar practice of using it as a word for any long, fairly wide European sword appears to have first originated with Victorian writers and collectors (in the mid 1800’s). Following the example begun by swordsmen and soldiers of the late 1600’s, 19th century writers began to describe swords of earlier ages as being "broader" than their own thinner contemporary dueling ones. Yet, the etymology of the word "broadsword" can certainly be traced. No Medieval sword, whether long or short, flat or wide, thick or tapering, was called a "broadsword" by Medieval knights and warriors. The great variety of Medieval blade styles precludes referring to any single type as a representative of a generic "broadsword". There is also so far no known reference or solid evidence for the term used in reference to Renaissance military blades from the 1500’s or early 1600’s. By time the actual term even came into use during the late 1600’s, only a fraction of the diverse forms of earlier swords were still seeing use.

It is vital to note that nowhere in the many Medieval fighting manuscripts by Masters of Defence is such a term as "broadsword" ever used (not surprisingly, no mention of the term is made in the Hispano-Italian master Pietro Monte’s encyclopedic volume on weaponry published in 1509). Nor do Renaissance masters of half a dozen nations ever mention it—and if anyone would do so, surely it would be those who at the time wrote on how to use swords. Italian fencing treatises, from Medieval times to modern, refer to "spada" (sword) whether it is a cutting sword, rapier, or sport epee. No mention is made of any equivalent term to "broadsword", or what is sometimes called "spada a lama larga" (large blade sword) in modern Italian. In German, the generic term for "sword" has always been simply "Schwert" while the fairly modern "Breitschwert" (broad bladed sword) is an extremely generic and non-historical term. Various languages also called the sword as svard, suerd, swerd, espada, esapadon, spadone, or simply epee. Similarly, there are many terms across Europe from languages other than English that simply do not translate as "broadsword".

The true "broadsword" can actually be defined as a sword with a wide, straight, double-edged blade used mostly by mounted troops from the 1700’s to 1800’s. The appearance of broadswords belongs to the late 1600’s as a distinction from civilian thrusting swords. During this time a gentleman’s blade for personal defence had become the slender small-sword descended from the rapier, whereas the military (and specifically cavalry) used wider cutting blades. These weapons are in fact a form of short cutlass. The various cage and basket hilted "mortuary" blades used by cavalry starting around the 1630’s were also in form, "broadswords" (though such forms of hilt were in use as early as 1520). Many 18th-19th century blades such as spadroons, cutlasses, Walloons, Pallasches, cavalry swords, basket-hilts and straight sabers, sabres, and sciabola were all called "broadswords" at one time and typically today this classification continues by English speaking collectors.

 

[mmadsen]

Perhaps better than Broadsword or Broad Sword?, Arma's Sword Forms breaks medieval and renaissance swords into a number of categories (with silhouettes of each form):

The Broadsword
A term popularly misapplied as a generic synonym for medieval swords or any long, wide military blade. The now popular misnomer "broadsword" in reference to Medieval blades actually originated with collectors in the early 19th century -although many mistranslations and misinterpretations of Medieval literature during the 19th & 20th centuries have inserted the word broadsword in place of other terms. They described swords of earlier ages as being "broader" than their own contemporary thinner ones. Many 17th-19th century blades such as spadroons, cutlasses, and straight sabers are classed as broadswords as are other closed hilt military swords. The weapon known as the true broadsword is in fact a form of short cutlass. The term "broadsword" does not appear in English military texts from the 1570s - 1630s and noes not show up in inventories of sword types from the 1630's, and likely came into use sometime between 1619 and 1630. Descriptions of swords as "broad" before this time are only incidental and the word "broad" is used as an adjective in the same way "sharp" or "large" would be applied. Leading arms curators almost always list the broadsword specifically as a close-hilted military sword from the second half of the 17th century. Those cage and basket hilted blades used by cavalry starting in the 1640's were in form, "broadswords". During this time a gentleman's blade had become the slender small-sword, whereas the military used various cutting blades. Today, arms collectors, museum curators theatrical-fighters, and fantasy-gamers have made the word broadsword a common, albeit blatantly historically incorrect, term for the Medieval sword.

Long-Swords
The various kinds of long bladed Medieval swords that had handles long enough to be used in two hands were deemed long-swords (German Langenschwert/ Langes Swert or Italian spada longa). Long-swords, war-swords, or great swords are characterized by having both a long grip and a long blade. We know at the time that Medieval warriors did distinguished war-swords or great-swords ("grant espees" or "grete swerdes") from "standard" swords in general, but long-swords were really just those larger versions of typical one-handed swords, except with stouter blades. They were "longer swords", as opposed to single-hand swords, or just "swords". They could be used on foot or mounted and sometimes even with a shield. The term war-sword from the 1300's referred to larger swords that were carried in battle. They were usually kept on the saddle as opposed to worn on the belt. A 15th century Burgundian manual refers to both "great and small swords". As a convenient classification, long-swords include great-swords, bastard-swords, and estocs. In the 1200’s in England blunt swords for non-lethal tournaments were sometimes known as "arms of courtesy". There is a reference to an English tournament of 1507 in which among the events contestants are challenged to "8 strookes with Swords rebated". Wooden training weapons were sometimes called wasters in the 1200's or batons in the 1300's and 1400's. Knightly combat with blunt or "foyled" weapons for pleasure was known as à plaisance, combat to the death was à lóuutrance.

 

[Umbran]

I definitely miss weapon speed factors from 2E AD&D. Didn't make much sense back then when the rounds were 1 minute each but when each round is only 6 seconds it definitely matters.

Not when initiative is cyclical, it doesn't. The weapon speed factor applied to initiative would only matter in determining who goes first in the first round. But as combat goes on, it becomes a matter of taking turns, not of "going first".

 

[nikolai]

Thanks for posting the Clements article. What is about fencing that turns people into obnoxious pedants? I thought the part where he willfully attempts to ignore early uses of broadsword - they obviously didn't mean "broadsword" just "swords that are broad" - was particularly enlightening.

I'd stand up for the obvious meanings.

Broadsword A sword with a broad cutting blade

As opposed to:

Longsword A sword with a long cutting blade

Shortsword A sword with a short blade

 

[MerakSpielman]

Re: Romeo and Juliet

They mention a long sword in Act 1 Scene 1

No mention of broad swords (or broadswords), though.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Not when initiative is cyclical, it doesn't. The weapon speed factor applied to initiative would only matter in determining who goes first in the first round. But as combat goes on, it becomes a matter of taking turns, not of "going first".

If you're going to apply speed factors to initiative, you need to roll for initiative each round. Otherwise there's no real point.

 

[Ace]

What I do for swords is this

Longsword -- 1d8/19-20 1h Martial weapon may be used with 2hands slash (s) and pierce (p)

Shortsword --- as above but 1d6 damage

Arming Sword also sidesword sometimes broadsword -- as longsword but 1h only 1gp less-- its an older technology. The same stats are used for a cavalry sabre. Even older models can only be used to Slash though these are usually only found in treasure hordes. If bought they would 2gp less

Bastard Sword aka Sword of War, Katana or Shone' War Blade as DMG howver exoic weapon prof allows 1 or 2 handed use equally

Rapier -- this is like a historical a cut and thrust sword with a light blade not a foil like weapon. The stats are as the PHB. An exotic version exists doing 1d8 damage. Profiecny with the exotic version gives proficieny with the normal one as well

War Cleaver as PHB falchion may be used 1h as an exotic weapon and exotic wp granst 2h use as well

Scimitar (also fencing sabre) as PHB may be finessed

Greatsword (aka Zweihander or 2h sword) as PHB

Great Scimitar (aka Hassan Chop! this is an exotic slashing weapon doing 2d6/18-20

And in some (not all) games Reaver sword aka Diaklaive an exotic weapon slash/pierce doing 2d8!/19-20