Broken item for grappling monk

[RichGreen]

Hi,

One of my players has created a new monk character for our epic (22nd level) game. The character is based around grappling/disarming. Without checking with me, he took the gloves of fearsome grip in Sword and Fist (+5 to climb, disarm and grapple checks) and created an improved version which gives him a +15 bonus. This item has given the character an incredibly high grapple bonus and is, IMO, completely broken.

I've looked in the DMG to find the limits on bonuses for non-epic/non-artifact items, but can't find anything. The Epic Level Handbook is no help either. I can find no precedent for any items giving a +15 (or anything higher than +5 for that matter) on any type of attack.

I've ended up disallowing the item. Can anyone suggest an alternative, non-broken item, preferably with a market price? What are the limits on bonuses for non-epic items?


Cheers


Richard

 

[hong]

Interestingly, your player has chosen a pretty dangerous way to go. Grappling is fine when you're fighting other 22nd level humans. Grappling is not so fine when you're fighting things like CR 22 gargantuan dragons and winterwights. Then it's just a way to get turned into paste. Not to mention that as a monk, he'll likely have a mediocre BAB to start with, which feeds into his grapple check.

That said, making that item without checking was pretty silly of him. IMO +15 is OTT, but +10 should be allowable. Balance is highly situation-dependent in epic, so if you think he's getting out of hand, just throw some of those dragons and winterwights at him.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Add to that that the fourth level spell freedom negates all grapple checks automatically. A 7th level cleric can shut down his grapple routine.

 

[Malin Genie]

Remember that for Epic items the market cost is multiplied by 10. So if the Gloves of Fearsome Grip are 15,000 (I can't remember the figure and IDHTBIFOMRN) then an Epic item that provided 3x the bonus would have a market price of (3^2) * 15,000 * 10 = 1,350,000. If the character is built around grappling maybe spending most of his money on that item would indeed be reasonable, but don't give such a powerful item away at non-Epic prices.

I would definitely class anything giving that sort of bonus as Epic (although not necessarily as an artifact) - compare the '+30 to skill' Epic items (which give 3x the 'usual' +10 bonus that skill items had in 3.0E.) A +10 item would be borderline - I'd probably ask the player either to commit to the +15 item at proper Epic prices or make do with the standard item.

 

[RichGreen]

If I allowed him a +10 item, how would I calculate the cost. Would this be an epic item?

The gloves of fearsome grip are indeed 15,000 gp.

Cheers


Richard

 

[Malin Genie]

The general formula for twice the bonus is (2^2)* the cost - so 60,000 if it were a standard item, or 600,000 if it were Epic (10* cost again if the item provides Epic-level bonuses.)

You might pick a price somewhere between the two (e.g. the arithmetic mean, which is 330,000 or the geometric mean, which is 190,000) if you feel it is significantly more powerful than what you would usually allow as standard items, but not quite 'Epic'.

 

[CRGreathouse]

+15 is a really large bonus. Heck, the epic feat only gives +10... I'd price it like an epic armor bonus (or maybe half that).

Scaling directly from the S&F magic item (removing the 3.0 cost of skill increases and multiplying by the epic surcharge) gives a price of 1,170,000 gp. Treating it like half an armor bonus gives it a price of 1,125,000 gp.

 

[RichGreen]

Thanks for all the advice.

I think I'll price the +10 version as Epic (600,000 gp).

Cheers


Richard

 

[Joachim Pieper]

Time for the guilty party to weigh in...

I think it's a bit harsh to say I didn't check first. I must have tried to give you the whole character sheet four times! Still, the true brokeness of the item was not revealed until last week's session.

Still, there's no real sense of perspective here. For 1.2 million, I could afford a rod of the Wyrm, allowing me to deploy a big-ass dragon. Is that the same as an extra +15 to grapple. The Epic Staff of Necromany is only 1.4 million. Not to mention that we only get 1.2 million at 22nd level (only?) - is this item really worth the full equipment of the other characters, and then some?

I think to price it as an attack bonus is a little harsh, particularly since it doesn't give me an attack bonus.

The grapple was +41, for the sake of interest...


Bring on the winterwights, I say - and I'll introduce them to my paladin buddy...



Cheers.

 

[reapersaurus]

dude - if you want a cheap way to get +10 to grapple checks, find a way to use that Psionic power that grants +10...