Bronze Warder MALFUNCTION, MALFUNCTION..

[hyphz]

The Bronze Warder is a new monster in Thunderspire Labyrinth. It has quite a few abilities, but only two relevant to this question:

RAMPAGE (standard recharge): The bronze warder can move 3 squares, and all smaller creatures whose space the warder enters are pushed 1 (sic) and knocked prone. After moving the bronze warder can use axe sweep.

INEXORABLE MOVEMENT: The bronze warder can move through a smaller creature's space, but it cannot end its movement in an occupied space.

During the adventure, the players have the opportunity to pick up a pair of Dwarven Grieves, which negate forced movement.

So, here's the situation:

BB       3#
BB     12 #
###########

B is our Bronze Warder, 1-2-3 are PCs, #'s are a wall. So..

BRONZE WARDER: Hey, fun time! For my Move action I shall Move 5 squares to the east. Then, I shall Rampage 3 squares to the east. On my first square I shall first move PC 1 to the west..

PC 1: But I'm still under its template!

BRONZE WARDER: Doesn't matter, Inexorable Movement! Then on my second square I shall move PC 2 to the west..

PC 2: Ouch.

BRONZE WARDER: And then on my final rampage square I shall move PC 3 to the north and end my movemen...

PC 3: Dwarven Greaves.

BRONZE WARDER: What?

PC 3: I activate Dwarven Greaves. You don't push me anywhere.

BRONZE WARDER: Um.. but I need you to be out of the way, to end my movement.

PC 3: Tough. Go back.

BRONZE WARDER: I.. can't go back.. I've used my Move action and my Rampage.

PC 3: Then the Rampage is an illegal move. Take it back.

BRONZE WARDER: Uh. Ok. But you've used up your Dwarven Greaves, right?

PC 3: What?

BRONZE WARDER: The Rampage is only illegal if you use your Dwarven Greaves. That's a Daily power. So you'd have to spend it to make the move illegal for me. Otherwise you'd be saying Dwarven Grieves, as long as they're unexpended, grant immunity to any and all situations where you'd have to be moved to create a legal end point for movement.

PC 3: So you're saying I have to spend my Dwarven Grieves in response to a move that you never make because it's illegal, because if I don't spend them, it's not illegal?

BRONZE WARDER AND PC 3: Um, help, DM!

DM: Um, help, WotC customer service!

WOTC-CS: "There is no official answer to this, we have contacted the developers."

So.. does anyone here have any idea on this?

 

[Professor Phobos]

Just have it stop right there. The grieves stopped it from pushing PC 3, but not 1 or 2.

 

[hyphz]

Just have it stop right there. The grieves stopped it from pushing PC 3, but not 1 or 2.

It can't: PC 2 is still under its template.

 

[CAFRedblade]

I'd simply rule that the Bronze Warder would end his turn at the location where PC number 2 used to be. BW moved, used Rampage to toss PC1 and then PC2 behind him. He arrived at PC3, who activated his Greaves, all further action is cancelled, but that still leaves BW in the last square he moved to.

At least that's how I'd rule it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

On my first square I shall first move PC 1 to the west..

Illegal.

Push: When you push a creature, each square you move it must place it farther away from you.

How far away is PC1 before the push? 0 squares - he is occupying a square you occupy.

How far is PC1 after a forced movement 1 square to the west? 0 squares - he is occupying a square you occupy. This is a slide, not a push.

The only direction you can push PC1 is to the northeast. Then, when you rampage east another square, you must push PC1 northeast, north, or east, and you must push PC2 east. Anything else is not a push.

And assuming PC3 didn't have Dwarven Greaves, there's nowhere you could push him to at all, so you'll always be attempting to end your move in an occupied square, which you can't do.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

However, you are not required to push someone, even when you're permitted to.

So let's assume that there is, in fact, one more column of empty squares to the east of PC3.

And let's assume that you elect not to push PC1, but you do push PC2 east with your second square of Rampage. Your intention is to move one more square east, and push both PC2 and PC3 east. But PC3 activates his greaves. You can't move east - PC3 is in the way. You can't stay where you are - PC1 was never pushed, and so he's still overlapping your space. What do the rules say?

PHB p283: If you don't have enough movement remaining to reach a square you are allowed to be in, your move ends in the last square you could occupy.

So you are shunted back, past PC1, to the point you were at after your 5 square move but before your Rampage began - the last square you were in that is still legal. PC1 and PC3 are where they were, and PC2 has been pushed 1 square east.

-Hyp.

 

[hyphz]

And assuming PC3 didn't have Dwarven Greaves, there's nowhere you could push him to at all, so you'll always be attempting to end your move in an occupied square, which you can't do.

Fair point.

However, assume that the pushes are made to the Northeast as you describe, but say that there is one more column of blank space between PC3 and the wall. In other words there is now a legal push for PC3 - to the East. Is it your interpretation then that, if PC3 uses his greaves, the Warder stops just before pushing PC3 and the greaves are expended? In other words, that the greaves don't just prevent the PC being moved but also allow a tap-back of any moves which become illegal if the PC is not moved?

 

[Hypersmurf]

In other words, that the greaves don't just prevent the PC being moved but also allow a tap-back of any moves which become illegal if the PC is not moved?

See my second post immediately before this one. If he did push PC1 and PC2 out of the way, and then failed to push PC3, his move will end adjacent to PC3. Essentially, the Warder moved into PC3's square, PC3 did not vacate, and so the Warder's move ends in the last square he could occupy.

If he elected not to push PC1, pushed PC2, and then failed to push PC3, his move will end up a couple of squares further west - the last square he could occupy.

-Hyp.

 

[hyphz]

But PC3 activates his greaves. You can't move east - PC3 is in the way.

... This is the problem - PC3 can't actually activate his greaves until the move is ALREADY MADE. They're an interrupt, activated in response to PC3 being pushed.

 

[Professor Phobos]

It can't: PC 2 is still under its template.

Then PC2 gets bumped or stomped on. Just work backwards from how you'd describe it- the monster charges, the player puts out his magic grieves and stops it, Blob vs. Juggernaut style.