Bubble-boy: Line of Effect issues.

[Ratama]

1. A PC in Grig form is hiding in the pocket of a Stone Giant-form PC (has 100% cover). However, an enemy Orc Shaman can see the little bugger squirming around in the giant's vest pocket; can the Shaman target the pocketed PC with a Hold spell?

2. A PC in Grig form with an active Shield spell is targetted, through the shield (which, while it only gives 75% cover for AC purposes, would completely obscure the Grig'd PC if the Shield were opaque rather than invisible), by an Orc Shaman's Hold spell. Is the PC affected?

3. A PC is standing in the hallway of an Inn; an enemy Archmage standing in the street sees him standing in the hallway through a closed window, and casts Hold Person at the PC, who is still visible through the closed window. Is the PC affected?

4. Imagine a PC is running around in a 10' clear, non-magical unbroken plastic bubble with no holes in it; is Bubble Boy immune to Hold spells cast from outside his bubble?

 

[kreynolds]

1. A PC in Grig form is hiding in the pocket of a Stone Giant-form PC (has 100% cover). However, an enemy Orc Shaman can see the little bugger squirming around in the giant's vest pocket; can the Shaman target the pocketed PC with a Hold spell?

No. You must be able to see your target.

2. A PC in Grig form with an active Shield spell is targetted, through the shield (which, while it only gives 75% cover for AC purposes, would completely obscure the Grig'd PC if the Shield were opaque rather than invisible), by an Orc Shaman's Hold spell. Is the PC affected?

Yes. First, it doesn't provide real cover. Second, its invisible, not opaque. You would need a custom spell for it to be opaque. Third, even if its opaque, it won't totally obscure the Grig. It provides only 75% cover to the caster, not full, no matter what size you are, even if you are a Grig.

3. A PC is standing in the hallway of an Inn; an enemy Archmage standing in the street sees him standing in the hallway through a closed window, and casts Hold Person at the PC, who is still visible through the closed window. Is the PC affected?

Yes. Targeted spells require a clear line of sight, but not line of effect (unless its a funky spell that is both targeted and area). Glass does not block line of sight, but it does block line of effect. For example, glass blocks the darkness spell, but not a medusa's gaze attack.

4. Imagine a PC is running around in a 10' clear, non-magical unbroken plastic bubble with no holes in it; is Bubble Boy immune to Hold spells cast from outside his bubble?

No.

Also, this is from the FAQ...

A wall of force is transparent. Does that mean you can
cast spells on the other side of it? I know if the spell actually
travels from the caster to the target that it will be blocked,
but what about situations where you designate the
originating point, such as flame strike? Common sense
suggests that it would be possible to cast such spells, but I
know I am going to need more than common sense to
resolve this issue.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbspPerhaps you are confusing the rule for line of effect with the
rule for line of sight. If your spell has a target entry, you must
have line of sight to your target or be able to touch your target
(see Aiming a Spell in Chapter 10 of the Player's Handbook).
If your spell has an effect or area, you need not see the place
where you aim the spell, but you have to designate the place
where you're aiming somehow (also see Aiming a Spell in
Chapter 10 of the Player's Handbook). So, if your line of sight
is blocked by something that does not also block line of effect
(such as darkness), you can still cast an area or effect spell
through the blockage.
&nbsp&nbsp&nbspA wall of force blocks line of effect, just like any other solid
barrier. As noted above, you need line of effect between you
and the point of origin for your spell (or to your spell's target,
or to the space in which you create an effect with a spell; see
Line of Effect in Chapter 10 of the Player's Handbook).
&nbsp&nbsp&nbspIf the line of effect from the example flame strike spell
passes through a wall of force, the spell is blocked. The blocked
spell fails and is wasted. The spellcaster knows the spell failed
but does not necessarily know why. A successful Spellcraft
check (DC 15) reveals that line of effect was somehow
blocked.

 

[BlackBart]

Re: Re: Bubble-boy: Line of Effect issues.

Yes. Targeted spells require a clear line of sight, but not line of effect (unless its a funky spell that is both targeted and area). Glass does not block line of sight, but it does block line of effect. For example, glass blocks the darkness spell, but not a medusa's gaze attack.

Are you sure about this one, it seems to me that one almost always requires line of effect
From the SRD:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

The character must have a clear line of effect to any target that the character casts a spell on or to any space in which the character wishes to create an effect. The character must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell the character casts. For bursts, cones, cylinders, and emanating spells, the spell only affects areas, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a burst's point, a cone's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanating spell's point of origin).

 

[Ratama]

I love you, Crothian.

That was the quote I needed, thanks.

Edit: Blackbart, I think that the LoE rules were put in to keep Ray/AE funkiness to a minimum, not to prevent Elminster from casting Hold Monster through his kitchen window.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I have to agree with Blackbart - area spells don't require line of sight, but do require line of effect; targetted spells require both.

However, bubble-boy wouldn't be immune to targetted spells - read the tower shield description.

The bubble would be considered part of bubble-boy's equipment, and he could be Held by a spellcaster targetting the bubble.

-Hyp.

 

[delkain]

The bubble would be considered part of bubble-boy's equipment, and he could be Held by a spellcaster targetting the bubble.

Following this line of reasoning... How large would the plastic bubble have to be to not be considered equipment? 10ft diameter bubble? 20ft diameter bubble? 50ft diameter bubble? The possibilities go on and on...

Delkain

 

[Hypersmurf]

More importantly... how large would his clear, unbroken, nonmagical plastic bubble with no holes in it have to be to let him keep breathing for a decent length of time?

-Hyp.

 

[Piratecat]

Kreynolds (not Crothian) is wrong on #3. The closed window would block line of effect, and thus would foil the spell. A gaze attack would work through it, though. Everything else looks kosher.

Note that with #4, someone in a Otiluke's telekinetic sphere is immune to most spells, due the the sphere's blocking of line-of-effect.

Edit: Blackbart, I think that the LoE rules were put in to keep Ray/AE funkiness to a minimum, not to prevent Elminster from casting Hold Monster through his kitchen window.

Nope. Whether for good or bad, Elminster needs to open that window before he can stop that darn dire raccoon from rooting through his garbage with the hold monster. The rules are very clear.

Hee hee. Dire raccoon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Nope. Whether for good or bad, Elminster needs to open* that window before he can stop that darn dire raccoon from rooting through his garbage with the hold monster. The rules are very clear.

* or Meteor Swarm...

Hey! The cat with the hook is back! What happened to your counter?

-Hyp.

 

[Ratama]

Kreynolds (not Crothian) is wrong on #3. The closed window would block line of effect, and thus would foil the spell. A gaze attack would work through it, though. Everything else looks kosher.

Note that with #4, someone in a Otiluke's telekinetic sphere is immune to most spells, due the the sphere's blocking of line-of-effect.

I'm not sure why you would intentionally misinterpret the rules in such a broken fashion (Resilient Shere, in particular, becomes an incredibly broken spell with your houserule).

I thought it was fairly obvious that the window-line of effect applied to spells like Fireball, or many ray spells, that have a physical component affected by such physical barriers.

Is a phone booth really protection from targetted spells in your game?

Oh, well. No casting Charm spells into the interogation room of the local precinct in your D20 Modern games, I guess. Your loss.