Bucklers and 2 Handed Weapons and Run Feat

[zerotkatama]

Buckler

This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

You can’t bash someone with a buckler.

Emphasis mine. It would seem you can use a bow or crossbow without any of of the drawbacks you otherwise would.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Emphasis mine. It would seem you can use a bow or crossbow without any of of the drawbacks you otherwise would.

Wow, I never noticed that. I guess that's the thing for me to learn today. Yay me!


...Just as well I'm not in school now, lol.

 

[Sejs]

Emphasis mine. It would seem you can use a bow or crossbow without any of of the drawbacks you otherwise would.

Yep, no attack penalty when using a bow or crossbow with your buckler arm.

"In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round." ... would still apply, though.

Can you provide a page reference to back that up? I ask, because it may make sense with some abilities, but not with others.

Sadly as I don't have my books handy at the moment, I cannot.

Going off the SRD, you basically have to pick which statement takes precedence, either:

"Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory."

or...

"Activation: Usually a character benefits from magic armor and shields in exactly the way a character benefits from nonmagical armor and shields—by wearing them."

Personally, tacking more to the second statement leads to odd circumstances, such as a shield protecting you when you're not using it to defend yourself (that is, using it). Best I can offer at the moment, though.

 

[Iku Rex]

A strict reading specifies off hand weapon, though.

No it doesn't. It specifies that you get the benefit when "you attack with a weapon in your off-hand". A character wielding a two-handed weapon is "attacking with a weapon in his off-hand". (If he's not he doesn't even need the feat to benefit from the buckler - see the buckler description.)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

No it doesn't. It specifies that you get the benefit when "you attack with a weapon in your off-hand". A character wielding a two-handed weapon is "attacking with a weapon in his off-hand". (If he's not he doesn't even need the feat to benefit from the buckler - see the buckler description.)

QFT

I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but as far as the -1 to attacks goes, doesn't that get negated simply by using a masterwork buckler? I thought the -1 penaly came from armor check penalty, and thus can be avoided. That's how I've always ran it.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

No it doesn't. It specifies that you get the benefit when "you attack with a weapon in your off-hand". A character wielding a two-handed weapon is "attacking with a weapon in his off-hand". (If he's not he doesn't even need the feat to benefit from the buckler - see the buckler description.)

Actually it could be read both ways. If attacking with a weapon in your off hand, (TWF) you get an extra attack, and have various penalties associated with the attack due to fighting with 2 weapons. Which is a different situation than attacking with a 2 handed weapon. There are no penatlies for using 2 hands or using 1 hand when you attack and you do not get an extra attack when using 2 hands on one weapon.

I think this boils down to a Intent and Interpritation. I think the intent is to allow 2 handed wielders to get the AC bonus at a -1 penalty to the attack. And to make TWF's chose between AC or an Attack or both with the IBD feat. I think they did it this way because you cannot use a 2 handed weapon in one hand to attack and thus don't have the option to chose to attack or defend so they allow it but at a penalty to attacks.

I've seen it argued both ways, and the wording itself is confusing, which was why I asked the question in the first place.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

QFT

I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but as far as the -1 to attacks goes, doesn't that get negated simply by using a masterwork buckler? I thought the -1 penaly came from armor check penalty, and thus can be avoided. That's how I've always ran it.

I don't think this is the case. You don't get armor check penalties on attacks only on skill checks. I think the -1 penalty for THW users is to offset the benefit of getting the AC bonus and using 2 hands. A TWF has the option to use the weapon in his off hand for attack or use the buckler for defense. A THW fighter does not have this option so they impose a penalty on the attack to balance it out.

Without the penalty there is no way any THW fighter will NOT use a buckler, making it too good. With the penalty it makes it so some would use it and some would not. Balance.

 

[GorTeX]

QFT

I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but as far as the -1 to attacks goes, doesn't that get negated simply by using a masterwork buckler? I thought the -1 penaly came from armor check penalty, and thus can be avoided. That's how I've always ran it.

The -1 penalty to attack has nothing at all to do with the ACP. AFAIK, the -1 to attack is never negated (unless you use a bow or a cross bow).

Now, if you aren't profiecient in the buckler, then you'd take an additional -1 to attacks due to the ACP applying, for a -2 total. This penalty would be alieved by making the buckler Masterwork...but you'd still have a -1 for the buckler (assuming you are using the hand/arm with the buckler strapped to it for something other than defense or firing a bow/xbow)

 

[GorTeX]

I don't think this is the case. You don't get armor check penalties on attacks only on skill checks. I think the -1 penalty for THW users is to offset the benefit of getting the AC bonus and using 2 hands. A TWF has the option to use the weapon in his off hand for attack or use the buckler for defense. A THW fighter does not have this option so they impose a penalty on the attack to balance it out.

Without the penalty there is no way any THW fighter will NOT use a buckler, making it too good. With the penalty it makes it so some would use it and some would not. Balance.

Well, if the THW fighter is using a 1handed weapon in 2 hands, he'd have the option to either weild the weapon in 1 hand and get the Buckler's Shield Bonus, or using it in 2 hands and suffer the -1 attack (losing the shield bonus unless they have Improved buckler defense).

It's something I'm considering with one of my PC's. I'm going into the Battlesmith class, so I have to use a warhammer..but sometimes, I want to do more damage, using the Warhammer with both hands, and sometimes I want the defense of a shield. Lately, I've just been a Hammer and Boarding it with a large +1 shield...but I've thought heavily about getting improved Buckler defense and going with a buckler instead (yea, I lose 1 AC and one Attack in the deal--that's why I haven't decided as yet)

 

[MarkB]

I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but as far as the -1 to attacks goes, doesn't that get negated simply by using a masterwork buckler? I thought the -1 penaly came from armor check penalty, and thus can be avoided. That's how I've always ran it.

No, the rules do not at any point equate the -1 to attack with the buckler's armour check penalty. Indeed, if you use a non-masterwork buckler and you are not proficient with it, you'll suffer an additional -1 to attack due to the ACP, for a total of -2.