Buffy 3/24 (spoilers)

[Chun-tzu]

the whole deal with Spike, is that he's a unique character. has been from the beginning.

but the bottom line here is that Spike, as a character, is very very complicated and also, very unique; i.e. normal rules don't apply.

Well, that might work for you, but it doesn't work for me. Sure, he's unique, but who isn't? But I accept the fact that he's unique, actually. We've seen that he's different.

What doesn't work for me, is that we've never been given sufficient reason to justify any "special"ness that Spike may have. Angel IS different, because he has a soul. (And of course, so does Spike, now.) But Spike is different, just because. The rules don't apply to him, just because. Sorry, but that's not a good explanation, in my book.

Now I'm not saying that there absolutely has to be a good reason spelled out for us. I'm just saying that, as far as I'm concerned, Spike's lack of evil, when he had no soul, is a glaring inconsistency in my book.

 

[John Crichton]

Spike is not "not evil" just because. He is a being motivated completely by love. If it's not love for mommy, it's love for Dru or Buffy. He does everything for those beings, himself be damned. He literally he no sense of self preservation, which makes him heroic in twisted way. We have never seen him run from anything without bringing the person he loves with him. He lives for others. As I mentioned before, it's one of the reasons why he is so willing to take on Slayers, he has no reguard for himself.

While love does not make him goodly, it certainly provides a much different motivation than the typical vampire. Angel fights for what is good and right which makes him a Champion, himself be damned. Spike fights for love, which is more selfish, himself be damned. To me, that is a very thick line.

:: edited for grammar ::

 

[Chun-tzu]

Spike is not "not evil" just because. He is a being motivated completely by love. If it's not love for mommy, it's love for Dru or Buffy. He does everything for those beings, himself be damned.

Hmm. Well, that's an interesting take on Spike. But again, I just don't see anything particularly different or remarkable in him. Yes, he has been motivated by love. But I think most people are similarly motivated.

Somehow, though, those motivations in him survived his transformation into a vampire. That doesn't make sense to me. In other people, their motivations survive, but they become twisted and perverted into something evil. The good is removed; all trace of conscience and selflessness is removed.

I don't think Spike should have been capable of selflessly protecting Dawn, or showing mercy to Buffy, or any of those other things. He was supposed to be evil, through and through, until he regained his soul. My assessment of Spike is that he was not evil, not by a long shot. That's my problem with this whole thing. They really wrote him as a person, not as a demon without a conscience.

 

[Negative Zero]

...What doesn't work for me, is that we've never been given sufficient reason to justify any "special"ness that Spike may have. ... The rules don't apply to him, just because. Sorry, but that's not a good explanation, in my book. ...

just because we haven't been give a black-and-white-spelled-out reason (and i think we've been given many clues as to why he is the way he is) doesn't mean that there isn't a good reason.

now if you're the sort who needs to have that reason before you accept it, then i certainly understand. (with the kind of DM i have i had to learn how to do that! ) but i think that there is one.

since Joss revealed his explanation for there suddenly being a new sister on the show, i just decided to accept what he says on faith that the good reason will be revealed at some point.

(problem is that man has too much damned patience for my own good!)

~NegZ

 

[John Crichton]

Hmm. Well, that's an interesting take on Spike. But again, I just don't see anything particularly different or remarkable in him. Yes, he has been motivated by love. But I think most people are similarly motivated.

Somehow, though, those motivations in him survived his transformation into a vampire. That doesn't make sense to me. In other people, their motivations survive, but they become twisted and perverted into something evil. The good is removed; all trace of conscience and selflessness is removed.

I don't think Spike should have been capable of selflessly protecting Dawn, or showing mercy to Buffy, or any of those other things. He was supposed to be evil, through and through, until he regained his soul. My assessment of Spike is that he was not evil, not by a long shot. That's my problem with this whole thing. They really wrote him as a person, not as a demon without a conscience.

I can see your point. I think what clouds the situation is the chip. He was in Season 3 for one ep and then pops back in for Season 4 ready to rock. I thought he was the Big Bad for that year until he got sniped. That had alot to do with that. Once Spike knew that he couldn't hurt humans his "evil" side was subdued and his lovesick side took over. It took a little while (I'm interested in the S4 Buffy DVD's to watch this again as it is a tad fuzzy for me).

The protecting Dawn thing was more for Buffy, IMO than anything else. Sure, he may see her as a "little sister" type but that's just the way he became. I wonder if we saw more of the Spike "middle years" what we would see. That was the time that the Big 4 were together and The Master was still around. Since Spike (not to mention Angel) has always had an authority problem it would be cool to see how he handled that time of his life.

 

[DM_Matt]

I wonder if we saw more of the Spike "middle years" what we would see. That was the time that the Big 4 were together and The Master was still around. Since Spike (not to mention Angel) has always had an authority problem it would be cool to see how he handled that time of his life.

Now THAT would make a cool spinoff.

Regarding the chip, remember that Maggie Walsh was a phychologist, and that the Initiative alloved the chip to eventually be removed if it was determined that Spike was no longer a threat. I think that the chip was DESIGNED to eventually condition HSTs away from doing evil.

 

[Storminator]

<SNIP>

They really wrote him as a person, not as a demon without a conscience.

If they hadn't written him that way, he'd have been staked years ago. There's no viable way to keep an unredeemable bad guy around for that long and still respect the tenets of good drama.

They decided they liked the Spike character and wanted to keep him around. So they had to keep rewriting him. Spike has changed more than any other character on the show, and that's because you really need to work hard to make a villain sustainable. The original season 2 Spike would never have lasted this long.

PS