I think it was more a matter of "wish-getting" rather than specifically soul-getting. It's just that Spike's wish was for his soul. Also, for most vampires getting your soul back is not a good thing - remember that Angel was *cursed* with his soul, so he would feel the weight of his crimes.Umbran said:
Buffy Finale
- Thread starter Sulimo
- Start date
Okay, a few notes:
Staffan: Perhaps it was fulfilling a wish. But still, if such methods of wish fulfilment exist in the world, then we shouldn't be too terribly surprised by anything.
Heretic Apostate: This is a spoiler..... Buffy did not come back "wrong". She guesses that, but it turns out to be untrue. Buffy is fine, but as far as the chip is concerned, people who have come back from the dead since it's activation don't count as human.
In general, just before leaving Sunnydale, Spike mentions that he is not a true monster, nor a real man. He sets out so Buffy can "get what she deserves".
Now, if death were what she deserves, there was nothing stopping him. The only reason to get the chip out would be for wider revenge - to get at the Scooby gang. But he could manage that by proxies, and didn't need to go to such lengths to get the chip removed. However, if he truly loves Buffy (in whatever fashion a vampire can be said to love), what would he figure she truly deserves, huh? A real man!
Spike set out to make himself into exactly the sort of thing she fell in love with before - a vampire with a soul. She cannot love a normal vampire, because they are evil. She cannot love normal men, as they aren't her equals (as seen with Riley). What she needs is a conscience, backed by power on par with her own.
Staffan: Perhaps it was fulfilling a wish. But still, if such methods of wish fulfilment exist in the world, then we shouldn't be too terribly surprised by anything.
Heretic Apostate: This is a spoiler..... Buffy did not come back "wrong". She guesses that, but it turns out to be untrue. Buffy is fine, but as far as the chip is concerned, people who have come back from the dead since it's activation don't count as human.
In general, just before leaving Sunnydale, Spike mentions that he is not a true monster, nor a real man. He sets out so Buffy can "get what she deserves".
Now, if death were what she deserves, there was nothing stopping him. The only reason to get the chip out would be for wider revenge - to get at the Scooby gang. But he could manage that by proxies, and didn't need to go to such lengths to get the chip removed. However, if he truly loves Buffy (in whatever fashion a vampire can be said to love), what would he figure she truly deserves, huh? A real man!
Spike set out to make himself into exactly the sort of thing she fell in love with before - a vampire with a soul. She cannot love a normal vampire, because they are evil. She cannot love normal men, as they aren't her equals (as seen with Riley). What she needs is a conscience, backed by power on par with her own.
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Ranger REG
Explorer
That's what I meant. So why remove the chip, other than the fact that he wants to kill and feed on other humans?Heretic Apostate said:
In one episode that include the "incident," I thought he was going to leave town for good (or jump over to Angel), until the next episode we see him go through a trial for something.
Henry
Autoexreginated
Beautiful take on that, Umbran.
Actually, the Spike-Buffy dynamic will be fascinating to see when he returns. Remember, not having a soul doesn't mean no capacity for evil. We see Angel enough to see that.
What will Spike's reaction be if, after ALL he has gone through, the sacrifices he has made so that he can be suitable for Buffy, she STILL rejects him? What will be his thought then? After all his pain, and his sacrfice, and taking the guilt of thousands of deaths on his hands, so that she could find him appealing, and she spurns him?
Will he consider it penance, and be a patient lap-dog? (Using the cruel way of looking at it?) Or, will he turn even more evil than before? And therefore, a far more interesting character?
Actually, the Spike-Buffy dynamic will be fascinating to see when he returns. Remember, not having a soul doesn't mean no capacity for evil. We see Angel enough to see that.
What will Spike's reaction be if, after ALL he has gone through, the sacrifices he has made so that he can be suitable for Buffy, she STILL rejects him? What will be his thought then? After all his pain, and his sacrfice, and taking the guilt of thousands of deaths on his hands, so that she could find him appealing, and she spurns him?
Will he consider it penance, and be a patient lap-dog? (Using the cruel way of looking at it?) Or, will he turn even more evil than before? And therefore, a far more interesting character?
ToddSchumacher
I like to draw!
Point 1) Spike has always been a rebel and done things other Vampires would never do.
Point 2) Spike seems to be a bit more learned than your average Vampire (the whole ring of amarra deal, seems to know a lot about magic, ect.) And willing to use said knowledge to get what he wants. All his talk of magic having a price probably comes from experience...and funny time after time he's willing to pay that price, isn't it?
Point 3) There's been talk from Whendon and co. that Spike specificaly went to Africa to get a soul, but let the wording ambiguous so as to make it dramatic for the show, or something like that. Apparently Marsters himself didn't know about that until recently, and played the dialog to make it sound like he wanted the chip out - Seems, as an actor, he doesn't know, or want to know, what is going to happen to spike before he gets his script for shooting the episode. More fun for him I guess.
Can't wait for September 24 to see what's next!!
Point 2) Spike seems to be a bit more learned than your average Vampire (the whole ring of amarra deal, seems to know a lot about magic, ect.) And willing to use said knowledge to get what he wants. All his talk of magic having a price probably comes from experience...and funny time after time he's willing to pay that price, isn't it?
Point 3) There's been talk from Whendon and co. that Spike specificaly went to Africa to get a soul, but let the wording ambiguous so as to make it dramatic for the show, or something like that. Apparently Marsters himself didn't know about that until recently, and played the dialog to make it sound like he wanted the chip out - Seems, as an actor, he doesn't know, or want to know, what is going to happen to spike before he gets his script for shooting the episode. More fun for him I guess.
Can't wait for September 24 to see what's next!!
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Here in Germany the season that just ended in USA and Australia did not even air... Anyway, I like the spoilers - I can still enjoy the series...
Mustrum Ridcully
Mustrum Ridcully
Henry said:
Well, I don't know what his thoughts will be, but I do know one thing...
Buffy darn well better reject Spike! Think for a minute about what Spike tried to do to her. If Buffy accepts him, she becomes a battered girlfriend accepting abuse. Quite honestly, I think if Joss Wheadon has Buffy accepting a rapist boyfriend, he'd get lynched.
Henry
Autoexreginated
Not a perfect parallel, however - think about this: It's more like the abusive rapist boyfriend's identical twin who was doing all the abusing, and now the real thing comes into town, trying to make amends for things he technically didn't do.
Otherwise, Buffy had no moral ground for putting an ounce of trust into Angel, who was ACTUALLY worse than spike in all his years of World-wide terror.
Think about the backlash of all Buffy's friends when Angel returned en-souled. She was ready to take him back, and in fact HID him from the other Scoobies. They became especially enraged at this, particularly Giles, who was tortured by Angelus, and whose girlfriend was KILLED by Angelus. Yet, even Giles made overtures of truce to Angel, for Buffy's sake.
Otherwise, Buffy had no moral ground for putting an ounce of trust into Angel, who was ACTUALLY worse than spike in all his years of World-wide terror.
Think about the backlash of all Buffy's friends when Angel returned en-souled. She was ready to take him back, and in fact HID him from the other Scoobies. They became especially enraged at this, particularly Giles, who was tortured by Angelus, and whose girlfriend was KILLED by Angelus. Yet, even Giles made overtures of truce to Angel, for Buffy's sake.
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In Angel's case, she took him back with the knowledge that he's actually a good person when he's got a soul. We have no such assurance with Spike. YOu can be a nasty sonofagun with a soul, you know...
Also, say Spike show's up and says, "I have a soul now!", would you believe him on only his word? Would it matter to you, even if you did believe him? After he tried to rape you? Be reasonable.
Also, say Spike show's up and says, "I have a soul now!", would you believe him on only his word? Would it matter to you, even if you did believe him? After he tried to rape you? Be reasonable.
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