Building a halfling monk
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MadScientist
First Post
The decrease in unarmed damage mirrors the fact that small sized characters must use weapons that are one-size category smaller than medium sized characters. The decrease in weapon size typically reduces the damage die by one (i.e. longsword does d8 damage, shortsword does d6). So small sized fighters, rangers and barbs really suffer a similar penalty, just in a less transparent way.Arc said:
Considering this, from a balance perspective, you almost have to reduce the unarmed damage of small monks. (admitedly I think the monk class itself is a little weak combat wise so unless you have multiple monks in the same party it's probably not a problem to give small monks the higher unarmed damage...) I would also like to point out that while halfling monks will dish out less damage and move a little slower than their larger counterparts they get a lot of other good abilities that compliment the monk well: The athletic skill bonuses, +1 saves, +4 hide etc.
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Mike Sullivan
First Post
MarauderX said:
Doesn't Power Attack require a 13 str?
I have had a fun idea for a halfling monk. I am not playing him because most of my group is full of powergamer types.
Here's the scoop.
I start with a dart-wielding Rogue (level 1) with Point Blank Shot. Then make him a monk. Take Rapid Shot (lvl3) and precise shot (lvl6). Apply your strength bonus to damage from darts, and a high dex bonus to attacks to hit (+1 for being halfling/+1 for size).
In this setup, at 3rd level you are able to keep away from danger and still make a difference. A reasonable monk can usually manage to get to an enemy flank. Then (from 20 feet away) you can hurl darts (+7/+5 to hit) doing (1d6+1d4+STR+1). That's averaging something like 8pts per dart, 2 darts per round. That's decent for a halfling monk. When you throw in magic darts (like glitterdust darts) he gets downright useful.
So why is he a monk? If you take the long-term view of your character, (and you have to with a halfling monk), you can imagine a character that uses darts effectively in the middle of a fray, trips fighters, grapples mages, etc. He's a more fluid character that easily finds cover behind the larger combatants and tumbles out of reach -- but darts you a couple times on his way to the mage.
Typically people argue against this kind of character. "My half-elf archer is better at ranged and melee! Why bother?" Well, that's true if he gets to pick his situation. In my experience, most archers are only shooting freely for a couple rounds max, then they're forced into melee. It's one or the other.
By contrast, a monk with good throwing-weapon skills can weave in and out of the melee area with greater effect. A monk relying only on melee can't do anything to you from 20 feet away, so his sphere of influence is much smaller by comparison. A fighter in melee with his favorite sword or hammer is in the same situation. A monk, needing no weapon, has a hand free for throwin'! He's like the gremlin among the enemy making things easier for you.
Just an idea i havent fully tested.
wolfen
Here's the scoop.
I start with a dart-wielding Rogue (level 1) with Point Blank Shot. Then make him a monk. Take Rapid Shot (lvl3) and precise shot (lvl6). Apply your strength bonus to damage from darts, and a high dex bonus to attacks to hit (+1 for being halfling/+1 for size).
In this setup, at 3rd level you are able to keep away from danger and still make a difference. A reasonable monk can usually manage to get to an enemy flank. Then (from 20 feet away) you can hurl darts (+7/+5 to hit) doing (1d6+1d4+STR+1). That's averaging something like 8pts per dart, 2 darts per round. That's decent for a halfling monk. When you throw in magic darts (like glitterdust darts) he gets downright useful.
So why is he a monk? If you take the long-term view of your character, (and you have to with a halfling monk), you can imagine a character that uses darts effectively in the middle of a fray, trips fighters, grapples mages, etc. He's a more fluid character that easily finds cover behind the larger combatants and tumbles out of reach -- but darts you a couple times on his way to the mage.
Typically people argue against this kind of character. "My half-elf archer is better at ranged and melee! Why bother?" Well, that's true if he gets to pick his situation. In my experience, most archers are only shooting freely for a couple rounds max, then they're forced into melee. It's one or the other.
By contrast, a monk with good throwing-weapon skills can weave in and out of the melee area with greater effect. A monk relying only on melee can't do anything to you from 20 feet away, so his sphere of influence is much smaller by comparison. A fighter in melee with his favorite sword or hammer is in the same situation. A monk, needing no weapon, has a hand free for throwin'! He's like the gremlin among the enemy making things easier for you.
Just an idea i havent fully tested.
wolfen
MarauderX
Explorer
Mike Sullivan said:
D'oh!
Thanks for catching that, it would have been embarrassing to have our DM smack me down. I do like the idea of having the power attack to add on to the weak damage, and with weapon finesse I wouldn't need to have high Str to hit somebody. With that whole 'system' Str wouldn't be as much a priority with the exception of grappling and tripping. In the PHB Con isn't a major constituant, but I feel it is necessary for survival with only d8 HP, and have trouble surrendering points to pump up Str. The compromising struggle continues!
MadScientist: I agree with what you are saying. The old monk-ish yoda type hobbling around with a cane is probably 15+ levels, and could teach a half-orc all sorts of new things about pain.
Darklone
Registered User
wolfen said:
You can't flank with ranged attacks.
MarauderX: Power Attack isn't really worth it for a monk char... you'll have problems enough to hit at all.
OTOH: If you hit bad enough to need real high numbers to hit anyways, then many attacks and full Power Attack are the way to go.
MarauderX
Explorer
Darklone said:
Hm... with a +9 at 4th is respectable with our group, and if our opponents are easier to hit than normal then applying the attack bonuses to damage instead could take them down much more quickly. Perhaps I need to clarify my reasoning of this.
For example, with an opponent AC=15, he could choose to attack in a couple of ways. 1st, he could ignore the power attack and just hope to hit the guy only needing a 6 to hit and doing 1d6+Str. This attack would be good for trying to tag someone to prevent a spell, or to use stunning fist. He could use flurry of blows instead, needing an 8 to hit each time and doing 1d6x2 damage. Or he could apply +2 to the damage of each blow and need a 10 to hit. Or he could just try to clobber the guy with one punch, using all +9 on the damage in addition to the d6, but needing a 15 to hit him. The choices are pretty good, and really offsets the lessened amount of damage he will do for being small.
I am thinking about halfling vs. elf vs. human, as the abilities and modifiers start to sway more towards mediocre going from one to the other but some of the trade-offs may be worth it.
Sejs
First Post
If you can, play a Strongheart Halfling (trades the +1 racial bonus to all saves for a bonus feat at level 1) - that subtype seems more apt to produce monks, and really as a monk your saves will be good all around, anyway.
There's an interesting sidebar in the FRCS about different monastic orders, and has the interesting idea that if you belong to a certain monastic order, you can multiclass without the normal cannot-be-a-monk-again penalties if you MC to certain classes that are inline with the ideals of the order. Of note for your character would be the Hin Fist, which is a halfling martial arts style. Monks of the Hin Fist can multiclass freely as Fighters, Rogues, and Paladins (usually of Yondalla). This would let you get a couple rogue levels later on without having to give up monking forevermore.
Given the halfling's natural proclivities - don't focus on doing damage. Be the utility monk. Weapon Finesse is good. Pain Touch would be very handy - the more you can get out of your stunning fists the better. As has been pointed out - get Expert Tactician. Particularly if you can get in a level of rogue. Jade and Steel (from Avalance Press) also has the Grappling Finesse feat which lets you use your dex instead of your str for all grapple and trip attempts. If you're making a grappling monk (not suggested due to small size... but it's your character, heh) - it would help. Feats like Unbalancing Strike, Freezing the Lifeblood and Falling Star Strike are good, because they operate off your Wis mod.. but as you've said above.. OA stuff may not be available.
There's an interesting sidebar in the FRCS about different monastic orders, and has the interesting idea that if you belong to a certain monastic order, you can multiclass without the normal cannot-be-a-monk-again penalties if you MC to certain classes that are inline with the ideals of the order. Of note for your character would be the Hin Fist, which is a halfling martial arts style. Monks of the Hin Fist can multiclass freely as Fighters, Rogues, and Paladins (usually of Yondalla). This would let you get a couple rogue levels later on without having to give up monking forevermore.
Given the halfling's natural proclivities - don't focus on doing damage. Be the utility monk. Weapon Finesse is good. Pain Touch would be very handy - the more you can get out of your stunning fists the better. As has been pointed out - get Expert Tactician. Particularly if you can get in a level of rogue. Jade and Steel (from Avalance Press) also has the Grappling Finesse feat which lets you use your dex instead of your str for all grapple and trip attempts. If you're making a grappling monk (not suggested due to small size... but it's your character, heh) - it would help. Feats like Unbalancing Strike, Freezing the Lifeblood and Falling Star Strike are good, because they operate off your Wis mod.. but as you've said above.. OA stuff may not be available.
Mike Sullivan
First Post
MarauderX said:
I'm unclear how you're getting +9, by the way. Isn't it:
+3 (BAB), +4 (Dex), +1 (Size) = +8?
Or did I leave something out?
You can only PA for an amount equal to your Base Attack Bonus. Thus, a Monk 4 will only be able to take a maximum of -3 to hit for +3 to damage.
Here's the breakdown for your character above (assuming a 13 str so he can get PA, and assuming I'm wrong about his modified attack bonus, and it really is +9, and assuming he's fighting an AC 15 opponent):
Attacks once, no flurry, no PA:
Hits on a 6+, 1d6+1 damage, 20/x2 crit.
4.5 * .75 * 1.05 = 3.54375 damage expected
Attacks with flurry, no PA:
Hits on an 8+, 8+, 1d6+1 damage, 20/x2 crit.
4.5 * .65 * 1.05 * 2 = 6.1425 damage expected
Attacks once with max (3) PA, no flurry:
Hits on a 9+, 1d6+4 damage, 20/x2 crit.
7.5 * .60 * 1.05 = 4.725 damage expected
Attacks with flurry, max (3) PA:
Hits on an 11+, 11+, 1d6+4 damage, 20/x2 crit.
7.5 * .5 * 1.05 * 2 = 7.875 damage expected
Power Attack is good for people with low base damages.
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