Building a halfling monk

[Technik4]

Wolfen:

How does your house-rule apply to characters with Uncanny Dodge (Cannot be Flanked)? Do you consider it a "ranged flank" or is the target merely denied his Dex bonus to AC because the rogue is "invisible" as far as he is concerned. If he is denied his dex, what if he saw the rogue climbing up behind him, or had some other indication that there would be an attack from the rear. Furthermore, after the first attack, is he still denied his Dex? I mean, he know recognizes a threat from his rear, even if he is facing someone ahead of him in combat.

You see, the problem I see is that it would be far too easy for rogues to get sneak attacks. I myself often play a character with rogue levels, and I manipulate battlemaps to get into flanks, deny targets their Dex through bluffing and higher initiative, or try to Hide before battle so that even if I lose initiative I can "surprise" someone.

It seems that if all I had to do was "flank" them at range, I would have no reason to ever wield a melee weapon, I mean why bother? As it is, most rogues concentrate on melee over ranged, precisely for that benefit - more sneak attacks.

I'm not trying to attack you, just figure out how you adjucate these various rulings that would seem to stem from your house rule. Personally I think it would complicate play for a variety of reasons, namely the rogue taking to long to map out where he wanted to go, or asking a lot of questions to exploit the terrain/environment for a ranged sneak. Imo, it might be interesting to have a "Sniper" prc which could do things like that, but I wouldnt let every Joe-Rogue do it.

Technik

 

[MarauderX]

Ok, back to the Monk issue still at hand...
The problem I found was being able to get all the feats necessary to get the Grappling Block and still have Weapon Finesse so as to use Dex for attacking - and keep it all at a 4th level character. I decided to go with a human for the feats and would take 2 levels in fighter for the feats and hit points. Let know if I have gone beyond the bounds of the books, and refresh your memory of the prereqs for this feat:
Improved Unarmed Strike (Automatic Monk feat)
Deflect arrows (2nd level automatic Monk feat)
Int 13+ (This one changes up the stats, as you will see below)
Expertise (Fighter feat)
Improved Disarm (Fighter feat)
Combat Reflexes (Human feat)
Weapon Finesse: unarmed (1st level feat)
Grappling Block (3rd level feat)

The stats for the character would end up being:
Str = 10
Dex = 16
Con = 12
Int = 14
Wis = 16
Cha = 8

With this layout, his AC=16 from the start, and with Expertise he could raise it up to 19 (BAB=+3). HP would be higher, from 17-40, 27 is around the average.

After reaching this goal, I started thinking about the chances of being able to use the Grappling Block. Essentially, if an enemy has a better BAB, the chances for using it successfully become substantially less as my target DC is the attack roll made by my opponent. Then say I use Expertise to try to raise my AC up to 19 so as not get hit by him, and he still hits, I would need to match his hit with one of my own - at only a +3. So for example, I am facing a 4th level fighter with an attack bonus=+8 (+4 Str, +4 BAB). If I use Expertise to raise up my AC to 19, he only needs to roll an 11 to strike me (50% chance). Now say he rolls a 15 for a total of 23. I would need to roll a 20 to match that 23 - a 5% chance. I roll an 8, and he clobbers me in my outstreched arms for 12 points of damage.
Now I could stop using the expertise, and the chances of him tagging me just went up, but the target attack roll I would need to reach might be much less. Say in the next round the fighter swings at my AC=16 and hits by rolling a 10 for a total of 18. I roll a 14 to GB for a total of 20 - successfully blocking and disarming him. Now I drop his weapon behind me, and pray he doesn't have Quickdraw.

Now using the GB feat against opponent with a lower attack bonus would be sweet, as the attack bonuses that hit you become weaker. It starts to become a problem once it is realized that a Monk BAB does not ramp up as quickly as a fighters and by 15th level it becomes almost way too lopsided to even have the feat vs. a fighter opponent of your level. Hopefully by then new feats and greater HP will make up for it, and there is only one way to do it - playtest it and survive.

 

[wolfen]

Wolfen:

How does your house-rule apply to characters with Uncanny Dodge (Cannot be Flanked)?

That is a clearly spelled out rule that imparts a fantastic skill to a character. If he can't be flanked he can't be flanked.

If he is denied his dex, what if he saw the rogue climbing up behind him, or had some other indication that there would be an attack from the rear.

I think with uncanny dodge, you must assume that they always have such an indication, and are therefore not flanked. However, a normal character might also see this coming (per DM). I think this is where the DM must rule -- and where WOTC cops out.

Furthermore, after the first attack, is he still denied his Dex? I mean, he now recognizes a threat from his rear, even if he is facing someone ahead of him in combat.

Your questions are all excellent. I think people must think through the flanking issue. A person fighting two people in front of him (a la 3 Musketeers) is not flanked. Flanking is advantageous precisely BECAUSE there is facing. It's not as though WOTC has an arbitrary flanking term applied to their combat system -- their combat system is trying to reflect real combat.

So if you accept that fact, then you see that a ranged attack MUST (logically) have the same flanking benefits as a melee if your target is engaged in melee with somone on their opposite side. Imagine a target is flanked...now just move flanker#1 20ft directly away from them, but still 180degrees opposite from flanker #2. Now place a throwing axe in flanker#1 hand.

Now think -- is the target threatened from opposing directions? Yes. Does it really matter if he knows this in the above circumstance? Logically, it would obviously be more advantageous to flanker#1 if the target DIDN'T feel threatened from that direction! Why should a ranged attack not get a flanking bonus in this circumstance? Whether the target recognizes it or not, he's flanked.

Aircraft carriers, tanks, bows, machine guns...all were created because ranged attacks DO threaten larger areas than a sword. WOTC is being inconsistent in their use of flanking. I'm not sure why, but it doesn't really matter. Anyone who cares to have a more realistic system just has to recognize the truth of the simulated situation and adjust from there.

Yes, rogues become more powerful -- but so does everyone else. And in a real "Braveheart-esque" battle, everyone's gotta watch their back because double-flanking is a PITA. A and C flank B, but B and D flank C.

I am willing to concede that, for simplicity's sake, it might be best to create a sniper rogue subclass. But in the long term I hope WOTC publishes optional rules for DM's to make combat more realistic, as was done with 2E.

Anyway, thanks for entertaining my house rule. I feel bad for hijacking the thread, but it is quite relevant to the use of a halfling rogue/monk. I'll stop posting to it, now, and maybe one day someone will create a new thread around this issue.

 

[Felix]

Well, I've not seen the feat, but Marauder, it seems like you've reworked your entire character to be able to take Grappling Block. And you say it's not even all that useful to a monk whose BAB doesn't go up that fast. Besides, your feat progression doesn't work if all of those feats are prereqs for GB:

1st Level Feats: Weapon Finesse (Char level)
..........................Combat Reflexes (Human)
..........................Expertise (Fighter)
2nd Level Feats: Improved Disarm (Fighter)
3rd Level Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
.......................... [Grappling Block] (Char level)
4th Level Feats: Deflect Arrows

If Deflect Arrows is indeed a prereq, you won't be able to take Grappling Block until 6th level. And for this you want to rework your whole character? A 6th level feat? Sounds dubious, dude.

[For everybody who thinks I'm being short with Marauder, which I am, on purpose, it's because we game together and I think the halfling monk would have good synergy with the group. Not that a human monk wouldn't, but rearrange all for one feat?]

 

[Camarath]

My suggestion would be to go for Shintao Monk if that fits with your vision of the character because the bonus feats can realy help you gain some of the nice OA feats. You can also trade stunning attack (as well as Deflect Arrows and Improved Trip) for a bonus feat if you want as per the OA Monk. At level 15 you would have a BAB 4 less than a 15th level fighter this is not insurmountable. The feat is not good enough to build your whole character around but can be a nice addition to your character. I don't know what type of play style you guys have but I have found monks to be enjoyable from a flavor and roleplaying stand point rather than from a powergaming one. They tend to be frustratingly back loaded, you always feel like your waiting for some feat or ability. I suggest you build your monk around a roleplaying idea and have fun with that wile your characters abilities develop.

Also you might consider playing a Nezumi thier speed makes them a good race for a monk and scent is fun.

 

[MarauderX]

Well, I've not seen the feat, but Marauder, it seems like you've reworked your entire character to be able to take Grappling Block. And you say it's not even all that useful to a monk whose BAB doesn't go up that fast. Besides, your feat progression doesn't work if all of those feats are prereqs for GB:

1st Level Feats: Weapon Finesse (Char level)
..........................Combat Reflexes (Human)
..........................Expertise (Fighter)
2nd Level Feats: Improved Disarm (Fighter)
3rd Level Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
.......................... [Grappling Block] (Char level)
4th Level Feats: Deflect Arrows

If Deflect Arrows is indeed a prereq, you won't be able to take Grappling Block until 6th level. And for this you want to rework your whole character? A 6th level feat? Sounds dubious, dude.

[For everybody who thinks I'm being short with Marauder, which I am, on purpose, it's because we game together and I think the halfling monk would have good synergy with the group. Not that a human monk wouldn't, but rearrange all for one feat?]

Dang. You are so right, I couldn't acquire the feat until 6th level no matter what I do. Having a human with high intellegence (besides the feats) allows the PC to load up on skill points like listen, tumble, hide, and move silently. Granted the max total ranks would be a bit lower for hide and listen, but the feat abilities far outweigh it all to me. Having Expertise to raise up the AC could be handy at times, along with Improved Disarm so as not to provoke an AoO. Attacks will be nearly the same, but damage will be significantly more.
Instead of being able to take the Grappling Block, it could be replaced with Dodge or another, and at 6th level the choice would be to pursue Grappling Block, or backtrack and extend into one of the other feat 'trees': Mobility (followed by Spring Attack); Sunder (followed by Eagle Claw Attack) or even Improved Grapple (followed by Choke Hold). It's not all about the feats, but they sure make it easier to deal with opponents.

Camarath: The Shintao Monk looks pretty cool, but I will need to have a BAB of +4 to take it, as well as sink skill points in Knoledge(religion) to get 8 ranks. Not sure if I want to go that way either. Then again, all 3 of the 'monk' PrCs listed in the OA require the same amount.

 

[krunchyfrogg]

Don't underestimate the halfling monk. Their racial bonuses are all very useful to you, whether it be the skill points, better AC, or saves.

The halfling monk won't dish out a lot of damage, but neither does any monk. If you want to dish out massive damage, don't play a monk.

The halfling monk is a survivalist and a support character. He never fails a saving throw. He helps the rogue out immensly by tumbling into flanking position.

One level (or three) of rogue isn't a bad idea, but either will cut short your monk career. The added skill points and sneak attack damage is what balances the two out; it's up to you.

 

[Camarath]

[

Camarath: The Shintao Monk looks pretty cool, but I will need to have a BAB of +4 to take it, as well as sink skill points in Knoledge(religion) to get 8 ranks. Not sure if I want to go that way either. Then again, all 3 of the 'monk' PrCs listed in the OA require the same amount.

Knowledge(Religion) is a class skill for monks in OA so its not as bad as it looks. You need 5 or 6 levels at least 4 of those levels need to be monk levels to enter Shintao Monk. So you could start the class at 6th (with a 4 monk/1 good BAB class) or 7th level (with 6 monk or 4 monk/2 any other class). The Tattooed Monk is fun also especialy if you have a high Con and take the DR tattoo. You could play a halfling multiclassed Paladin/Monk (maybe the Shintao Monk too) that could be fun and you could get your saves pretty high.

 

[Darklone]

Aircraft carriers, tanks, bows, machine guns...all were created because ranged attacks DO threaten larger areas than a sword. WOTC is being inconsistent in their use of flanking. I'm not sure why, but it doesn't really matter. Anyone who cares to have a more realistic system just has to recognize the truth of the simulated situation and adjust from there.

Well wolfen, forgive me my sarcastic comments, but I couldn't resist after your obvious ignorance to the existing rules in the rules forum. Your arguments may be fine, but this forum is not the place to start (well known) "The rules are silly" discussions.

As for your arguments: D&D tries to emulate realistic combat with medieval weapons. Assuming you stand with a bow 30ft next to a swordfighter (without arrow knocked), if he's busy with another swordfighter or not, you (the archer) are in a losing situation.

The rules allow to simulate a more or less realistic/fantastic combat with a balance that allows to play most weapon combinations. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't like the rules, there are many different systems out there with partially very nice rule mechanics. There is even a houserules forum next door with great ideas. But it's a little bit funny on your behalf to come into the rules forum and tell everyone that our criticism on your examples is wrong without further explaining in the first few posts that you houseruled the whole matter.

Back to topic:
MarauderX: In the OA book there's that feat Defensive Strike... have a look at that one. Maybe you like it.

OTOH: Try shuriken with poison.

 

[MarauderX]

Don't underestimate the halfling monk. Their racial bonuses are all very useful to you, whether it be the skill points, better AC, or saves.

The halfling monk won't dish out a lot of damage, but neither does any monk. If you want to dish out massive damage, don't play a monk.

The halfling monk is a survivalist and a support character. He never fails a saving throw. He helps the rogue out immensly by tumbling into flanking position.

One level (or three) of rogue isn't a bad idea, but either will cut short your monk career. The added skill points and sneak attack damage is what balances the two out; it's up to you.

I think you address the important issues that I have with a halfling monk (HM from now on...). The HM does not deal out a lot of damage, which makes can make a huge difference in a campaign of our type. Granted he shouldn't be on the front lines, but his placed behind the lines may just secure an early grave given the HM low movement rate in 3.0.

The higher skill points are really just a minor issue overall, and having a human with Int=14 easily has more skill points than the HM, they just can't go as high to start.

I liked the rogue idea, but it has too many drawbacks to make it useful as a monk, and may as well just stay with being a rogue for his career.

The things that I will miss will be the +1 to AC and +1 to all saves. As a complete package it is hard to give up a HM, but the benefits for being human are big enough to ensure he will survive - his primary goal, after all.

Darklone: Thanks for putting a period on that tangent discussion.
Defensive strike is good to have as well, but the total defensive action for a round kinda kills it for me. I don't forsee enough opportunities to use it either. I hope to see and use plenty of shuriken as a poison delivery device.