Bull Rush... Effective?

[Brother MacLaren]

But the way I see it, if it's useful for a cohort, why wouldn't it be useful for the main PC as well?

The cohort's chance of Bull Rushing or Tripping is about as good as the PC's, but the cohort's chance of attacking, Disarming, or Sundering successfully is substantially less because of the level difference. For the cohort, Bull Rush or Trip can be the "At least I can do something in this fight" tactic - not for use all the time, but in fights with ACs high enough that the PC finds hitting somewhat difficult and the cohort finds it very difficult.

Figure the cohort's attack bonus will be about 3-4 pts behind the PC (2 due to level, 1-2 due to inequality in stats/magic).

 

[werk]

I regularly have to use BR to shove our wizard out of the way.

We play that you can move through friendly squares. Is this contradicted in the rules?

 

[the Jester]

We play that you can move through friendly squares. Is this contradicted in the rules?

No, you can move through friendly squares.

You cannot, however, charge through friendly squares. You must have a clear path.

 

[sfedi]

We play that you can move through friendly squares. Is this contradicted in the rules?

You can move through a square occupied by an ally without penalty (if he's not paralyzed).
But although there's no penalty for moving, it prevents charging.

What Darth Malakh is probably doing, is to overrun his wizard-party-member as part of the charge.

 

[kjenks]

What Darth Malakh is probably doing, is to overrun his wizard-party-member as part of the charge.

I hope not. That was forbidden by the PH Errata last year.

 

[werk]

I hope not. That was forbidden by the PH Errata last year.

So...moving (in anyway besides a charge) through friendly occupied squares is OK, but charge must be clear and cannot be cleared using BR. That makes sense because you would be pushing your buddy in front of you, not deflecting him to the side.

Could you overrun a friendly and still charge?

oops, answered my own question:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.

 

[RandomPrecision]

Well, it's been stated that you can move through friendly squares, but A.) we never use miniatures, and B.) my most recent DM doesn't accept that. Therefore, getting back to the usefulness of BR, we were in a narrow hall with 2 party members across fighting 2 monsters across. A bull rush would draw an AoO from the other monster, but open the corridor for other party members to get in, potentially flank both monsters, and hit a monster behind these two.

 

[kjenks]

Well, it's been stated that you can move through friendly squares, but A.) we never use miniatures, and B.) my most recent DM doesn't accept that. Therefore, getting back to the usefulness of BR, we were in a narrow hall with 2 party members across fighting 2 monsters across. A bull rush would draw an AoO from the other monster, but open the corridor for other party members to get in, potentially flank both monsters, and hit a monster behind these two.

You can get away with not using minis in trivial combats if you really know the rules. Otherwise, you need a grid and minis (or pennies or whaver) so that everyone can visualize the tactical situation.

If you have a DM who "won't accept" a tactical rule, it probably won't help you to describe how the tactical rules work. But just for fun, I'll show you how it could work.

If you have a 10-ft.-wide corridor with a ranger (R), two fighters (F), two orc (O) and an orc shaman (S) like this:

_ABCDEFGHI
1R_FO_S_
2__FO___

The Ranger in A1 wants to attack the Shaman in F1, but he needs to get through the melee first.

The Ranger can move from A1 to C1 and intiate a Bull Rush from the fighter's square (per the Bull Rush rules), entering the orc's square, D1. This provokes an AoO from both orcs, except if the Ranger has the Improved Bull Rush feat, he doesn't provoke an AoO from the orc in D1. The AoO from the orc in D2 has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the orc in D1.

Whether the Ranger fails or succeeds in his Bull Rush attack, the Ranger is done for the round (he's made a move action and an attack action).

If the Ranger fails to push the orc back, the Ranger returns to square C1. Since this is occupied, the Ranger falls prone (per the Bull Rush rules).

If the Ranger succeeds, the orc is pushed back. Depending on the results of the opposed checks, the orc can be pushed back 5 ft., 10 ft., 15 ft., etc.

If the orc is pushed back 5 ft. from D1 to E1, the Ranger stops in D1 and the combat continues. (The orc in D2 probably falls back 5 ft. to E2, preventing the Ranger from getting to the Shaman, but that happens later.)

_ABCDEFGHI
1__FROS_
2__FO___

If the orc is pushed back 10 ft. from D1 to F1, the Ranger stops in E1. Now the orc is in an illegal square and his previous square is occupied, therefore he must move to the nearest legal square. Since there are four legal squares 5 ft. away from F1 (E2, F2, G2 and G1), the DM must roll randomly to determine where the orc ends up.

If the orc is pushed back 15 ft. or more, the results are the same as if the orc has been pushed back 10 ft. because the Ranger can't Bull Rush more than one opponent in a round so he can't enter the Shaman's square.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If the orc is pushed back 10 ft. from D1 to F1, the Ranger stops in E1. Now the orc is in an illegal square and his previous square is occupied, therefore he must move to the nearest legal square. Since there are four legal squares 5 ft. away from F1 (E2, F2, G2 and G1), the DM must roll randomly to determine where the orc ends up.

I personally don't like the wording in that rule because it doesn't consider how you ended up in that space. I houserule this to be similar to the other case (where the ranger is rebuffed) such that the orc would just become prone in the shaman's square. I carry this houserule over to the general case as well, depending on the action and what that space is illegal.

 

[kjenks]

That house rule gives any character a tactic that's normally only available to characters with the Shock Trooper tactical feat from Complete Warrior -- something like the Domino Rush ability. I'd recommend against giving away a "Trip after Bull Rush" ability like that for free.