Bull Rush Question and feats to assist

[Mal Malenkirk]

You are not moving. You are being moved. This movement is not a part of your action. I just don't see your logic here. GEEZ

Look, if you are pushed back by a bullrusher, you might provoke AoO for moving in a threat zone. And so does the bullrusher.

If either your friends or your opponents try to take advantage of this AoO, there is a 25% chance that they hit the wrong target (i.e your friends might hit you instead of the bullrusher)

It says so in the description of bull rush on p.136 of the PHB, look it up.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bull Rush Question and feats to assist

There is a difference between a 5' step and being moved (or moving) 5' feet. One doesn't provoke an AoO, the other does.

I know this will come as a shock to some (), but Caliban's right. One caveat: the bull rusher obviously doesn't get an AoO on the defender (as some have suggested!).

 

[kreynolds]

Look, if you are pushed back by a bullrusher, you might provoke AoO for moving in a threat zone. And so does the bullrusher.

If either your friends or your opponents try to take advantage of this AoO, there is a 25% chance that they hit the wrong target (i.e your friends might hit you instead of the bullrusher)

It says so in the description of bull rush on p.136 of the PHB, look it up.

I know what it says in the book but I just looked it up anyway. Nowhere does it say "if you are pushed back by a bullrusher, you might provoke AoO for moving in a threat zone." The description of bull rush loosely implies that the defender could suffer an attack of opportunity but they never state why? For the attack, it's obvious, but for the defender? Tell me where it says that and then I'll Look again. Deal?

 

[IceBear]

I guess it's because, even though the defender didn't initiate the move, he could be moving through someone's threat zone (other than the rusher), and even though he only moved 5ft it isn't a 5ft step .

Now, an argument could be made that since the defender didn't move by his own actions, then he shouldn't suffer a movement AoO, but when I picture the defender being pushed back 5ft by a bull rush, I see someone who is offbalance and not in the best position to defend themselves, and thus open to an AoO.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

Now, an argument could be made that since the defender didn't move by his own actions, then he shouldn't suffer a movement AoO, but when I picture the defender being pushed back 5ft by a bull rush, I see someone who is offbalance and not in the best position to defend themselves, and thus open to an AoO.

Kind of makes sense and I logically understand that, but in game mechanics it just doesn't feel right to me. In fact, it just seems plain ol' hokey.

Now, an argument could be made that since the defender didn't move by his own actions, then he shouldn't suffer a movement AoO...

That's been my argument, but apparently a few people feel like you have slandered their heritage by suggesting such an argument. Oh well...

 

[IceBear]

Basically, the underlying rule is if you move within someone's threat range you could suffer an AoO (there are a couple of caveats with the 5-ft step and double moves). It never states that *you* moved, just that you move within the threat range.

An AoO is supposed to be a free attack when someone lowers their defences.

If someone was standing in front of you, and then got pushed to the side by someone else, there will be a moment there in which that person fails about for balance and what have you. It's that moment at which you take the AoO.

Anyway, with Bull Rush, this is not really a great tactic because you basically need to have all your allies standing around the person you are pushing and even then you might get hit instead of them.

I'm sorry if it doesn't jive with your sense of how things are supposed to work, but it fits with mine and with the rules (why bother to go into detail about the chances of hitting the wrong person with an AoO if AoO aren't to be a common thing with it?)

Again - if you dropped some of the sarcastic remarks people might be a little more open to what you are saying. I'm not saying that you should never be sarcastic, but if you get people's backs up with the tone of your words, they'll be harder to convince that the words themselves are right.

IceBear

 

[kreynolds]

I'm sorry if it doesn't jive with your sense of how things are supposed to work, but it fits with mine and with the rules

Don't be sorry. And that's "your opinion" of the rules, not law. I'll accept it if that's the way it's supposed to work, and in a way, it does make sense.

Again - if you dropped some of the sarcastic remarks...

Hey, I didn't start it, and when I responded, others just jumped in at me without even considering that someone else was the trigger. Hopefully, you've noticed that even when I'm sarcastic, I still offer my opinion, which is better than someone just posting, "Geez...can't you get it." with no explination or added helpful info.

I'll drop it if everyone else does. Maybe I'm just thick-skinned 'cause I don't give a d*** about what others think of me. I'm just trying to figure out how a rule works, but it's not my fault if some people have a god complex about a frickin' role-playing game.

 

[IceBear]

I understand...just giving some friendly advice is all.

Anyway...I still think the correct ruling is that you would be subject to an AoO if you are bullrushed.

1) The underlying rules for AoO are that movement within a threatened area draws an AoO

2) Being bullrushed causes you to move, and if within a threatened area that would draw an AoO.

You are quite passionate about your opinions of the rules, and that's a good thing. However, you haven't really cited any rules other than your opinion of it not making sense. We have.

Again, I understand that you don't think that you being pushed would qualify as movement. However, given the context of the AoO discussion within the rules for bullrush, I think it does. Even if you still don't, you suffer an AoO when you lower your guard, so not only are you moving in someone's threatened area you are most likely unable to guard yourself properly either while being pushed.

Again, picture someone standing in front of you and being pushed away to the side. Do you not see how there could be an AoO there? Can you also see how risky it is and how likely you might be to hit your ally? That's why they have the bull rush rules detailed like they do.

IceBear

 

[Arcanus]

Okay now that we are not going to continue to be sarcastic, we can discuss my posted subject further.

If I bullrush somebody like in the original post and that Somebody and ONLY that someone gets moved back 5 ft from the same square we had just previouly occupied WOULD I get an AoO on him for entering a space that I threaten?

He would be off balance from being shoved back by me after all.

I am not looking for mega power plays here just wondering about it and the more I thought about it the more it has made me think that I would.

 

[kreynolds]

I understand...just giving some friendly advice is all.

No problem. I appreciate it.

1) The underlying rules for AoO are that movement within a threatened area draws an AoO

2) Being bullrushed causes you to move, and if within a threatened area that would draw an AoO.

And what about 3) Moving 5-feet does not invoke an attack of opportunity.

You are quite passionate about your opinions of the rules, and that's a good thing.

More to the point, I am passionate about both logic and consistency. I'll explain this later.

However, you haven't really cited any rules other than your opinion of it not making sense.

Wrong. Moving 5-feet does not invoke an attack of opportunity. Just because it isn't agreed with, doesn't mean that I didn't voice a rule. Besides, the only argument I have received so far is an opinion, especially since everyone has failed to cite or quote anything that states otherwise.

Again, I understand that you don't think that you being pushed would qualify as movement. However, given the context of the AoO discussion within the rules for bullrush, I think it does. Even if you still don't, you suffer an AoO when you lower your guard, so not only are you moving in someone's threatened area you are most likely unable to guard yourself properly either while being pushed.

I agree. However, this goes against my opinion that moving 5-feet, no matter the movement, does not provoke an attack of opportunity. I am amazed that nobody has thought to mention the Knockback weapon enhancement, that on a failed save, you are knocked backwards 10 feet. Notice that WotC mention nothing about you taking an AoO because you were knocked back, even though they managed to successfully cover all other relevant aspects of the Knockback weapon enhancement. This is what violates logic and destroys consistency.