Bull's Strength etc.

[KarinsDad]

The change to +4 makes the Maximize Spell feat only useful for DD spells. I'd like to see a bit more versatility from that feat, and a straight +4 is not the way to do it.

Darn it!!!

I had this all worked out for my game and now you guys have got me on the fence again.

Do I go with the +4, 10 minutes per level for simplicity?

Or, do I go with the D4+1, 10 minutes per level so that Empower Spell and Maximize Spell have more utility?

Hmmm.


On top of that, 3.5 has Mass versions of these spells. Do I really want to do a Mass version of D4+1 where the caster could roll a one?

Decisions, decisions, decisions, ...

 

[Hecateus]

Slighty OT, but I am dissapointed in the durations of Summon Monster. At 1st lvl, the spell lasts for only one round...totally useless for a 1st lvl caster; especially compared with other spells like Magic Missile, which always hits...How much damage can a Celestial Monkey do even if it hits in the one round it's got??

I think a fairer spell would have had the duration at 6 rounds + 1 round every other level; just enough time to help in a fight without it being there all day. ...but I am not the one who play tested this.

 

[AuraSeer]

Hecateus, at very low levels summon monster is a utility spell, not an attack spell. The animals are good for setting off traps, triggering inaccessible switches, fetching small items, and so on. In combat they're only really useful if your rogue has no other way to set up a sneak attack.

The benefit is that you don't need to choose the creature or its orders until casting time, making the summon one of the most flexible spells in the game. That can be important when you have such a limited number of slots.

(If you would like to discuss the topic some more, please start a new thread so we don't totally hijack this one.)

 

[Nifft]

The juxtaposition of these topics -- Summon + Empower / Maximize -- has me wondering if those topics are compatible.

Can you Maximize a Summon spell (for example, to get 1d4+1 lower-level critters at max HP each)? If so, Max & Emp got plenty of utility utility, and KarinsDad shouldn't worry about the Anibuffs.

-- N

 

[Staffan]

Can you Maximize a Summon spell (for example, to get 1d4+1 lower-level critters at max HP each)? If so, Max & Emp got plenty of utility utility, and KarinsDad shouldn't worry about the Anibuffs.

I'd be inclined to rule that the maximize/empower would only apply to the effects of the spell itself - the number of critters summoned. So a maximized summon monster III would either summon five I-level monsters, three II-level monsters, or one III-level monster.

Possibly not the most efficient use of a 6th-level spell.

 

[Nifft]

Possibly not the most efficient use of a 6th-level spell.

I'll wager that Maximize is seldom the most efficient use for high-level spell-slots.

-- N, fan of Quicken

 

[DonAdam]

I reduce them all to one spell, like d20 Modern, but with a 1 min/level duration and a +5 bonus. Since you choose at the time of casting, it becomes a versatile spell, and my party uses it as often as they used to use the buffs (adjusting for the absence of a cleric now).

 

[Vahktang]

2. The benefit was fixed to prevent empowering for higher values (and multi-empowering, although that was fixed in 3.5) and also, presumably, to make the spell more predictable and easier to manage.

I wouldn't say 'fixed'.
But, then again, I'm old school and like rolling dice.
Not a big fan of the straight +4.

More later,

Vahktang

 

[Storminator]

I'll wager that Maximize is seldom the most efficient use for high-level spell-slots.

-- N, fan of Quicken

I have a new PC with the following trick: Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement with a Maximize Rod. 16 point STR penalty, thankyouverymuch.

PS

 

[Lladnar]

I have a new PC with the following trick: Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement with a Maximize Rod. 16 point STR penalty, thankyouverymuch.

As I understand it:
Base spell: 1d6 + 5
Empower: + 1d6 x 1/2
Maximise: Make base 1d6 = 6
Total: 12-14

I know that I'm right about the maximise only applying to the first d6. There was a specific mention of an empowered + maximised spell somewhere (the FAQ?) that gave this result. The rule is that for all metamagic feats applied to a spell, the modifiers get applied to the base effect.

I am less sure about the aplication of empower. I thought it only applied to the dice, not fixed numbers. Anyone know for sure? I hate the "variable, numeric effects" wording. Would it have been so hard to use an extra line of text to explain what they really mean? Heck, would it have been so overpowered to just say "numeric effects", and leave it at that?