Bull's Strength etc.

[Storminator]

As I understand it:
Base spell: 1d6 + 5
Empower: + 1d6 x 1/2
Maximise: Make base 1d6 = 6
Total: 12-14

I know that I'm right about the maximise only applying to the first d6. There was a specific mention of an empowered + maximised spell somewhere (the FAQ?) that gave this result. The rule is that for all metamagic feats applied to a spell, the modifiers get applied to the base effect.

I am less sure about the aplication of empower. I thought it only applied to the dice, not fixed numbers. Anyone know for sure? I hate the "variable, numeric effects" wording. Would it have been so hard to use an extra line of text to explain what they really mean? Heck, would it have been so overpowered to just say "numeric effects", and leave it at that?

Interesting question. My DM rules as follows:

Base Spell: 1d6 +5
Maximized: 6+5=11
Empowered: 1.5*11 = 16

It shouldn't matter which order you apply the metamagics in, and any spell with a Maximize effect should not produce a range of numbers.

PS

 

[KarinsDad]

Interesting question. My DM rules as follows:

Base Spell: 1d6 +5
Maximized: 6+5=11
Empowered: 1.5*11 = 16

It shouldn't matter which order you apply the metamagics in, and any spell with a Maximize effect should not produce a range of numbers.

Base Spell: 1*(1d6+5) = 6 to 11
Maximized: 6+5 = 11
Empowered: 0.5*(1d6+5) = 3 to 5

Base Spell Empowered = 1*(1d6+5) + 0.5*(1d6+5) = 1.5*(1d6+5) = 9 to 16
Maximized Empowered = 6+5 + 0.5*(1d6+5) = 14 to 16

I think this is the proper way to do it (but I am not sure if 3.5 changed this).

 

[Lladnar]

Interesting question. My DM rules as follows:

Base Spell: 1d6 +5
Maximized: 6+5=11
Empowered: 1.5*11 = 16

That goes against D&D precident. Using this logic a +1 long sword does 1d8+1. A spirited charge doubles this to 2d8+2. If you get a critical this double this to 4d8+4. As we all know this is not true, as all modifiers are applied to the base effect.

The FAQ specificly states about applying multiple metamagic effects: Just stack up the costs and remember to apply the additional effects to the basic spell.

It shouldn't matter which order you apply the metamagics in

I agree. As they all apply to the base spell, order doesn't matter.

and any spell with a Maximize effect should not produce a range of numbers.

Except in the rather odd case of maximise + empower.

 

[Lladnar]

Empowered: 0.5*(1d6+5) = 3 to 5

So you believe that the empower applies to the whole numerical effect, not just the variable part (AKA the dice). I'm not saying that you are wrong, but are you aware of anywhere that specificly states this?

 

[Storminator]

Hard to follow the quoting of quoting, when the embedded quotes fall off...

That goes against D&D precident. Using this logic a +1 long sword does 1d8+1. A spirited charge doubles this to 2d8+2. If you get a critical this double this to 4d8+4. As we all know this is not true, as all modifiers are applied to the base effect.

If you apply Empowered to the base spell, then Maximize to the base spell, shouldn't you get 150% of the maximum roll? Shouldn't you end up with exactly the same result as if you had merely Empowered the spell and rolled really well?

IOW,

Base spell: 1d6 +5
Good roll!: 6 + 5 = 11
Empowered: 1.5*11 = 16

Isn't that the effect that Maximize gives you?

The FAQ specificly states about applying multiple metamagic effects: Just stack up the costs and remember to apply the additional effects to the basic spell.

Unfortunately, the FAQ doesn't address the maximized empower case. Unless I missed something.

I agree. As they all apply to the base spell, order doesn't matter.

Except in the rather odd case of maximise + empower.

Even then it shouldn't matter. You should get the best of all possible results, because you get the maximum.

So you believe that the empower applies to the whole numerical effect, not just the variable part (AKA the dice). I'm not saying that you are wrong, but are you aware of anywhere that specificly states this?

I can't find a ruling one way or the other. If you look at the variable effect as 1-6, with a fixed 5 added on, you would Empower the 1-6. If you see the variable effect as 6-11, you would Empower that. The second method is the one we use in our games.

PS

 

[KarinsDad]

So you believe that the empower applies to the whole numerical effect, not just the variable part (AKA the dice). I'm not saying that you are wrong, but are you aware of anywhere that specificly states this?

Yes, inside the Empower feat itself for both 3E and 3.5.

"an empowered magic missile deals 1 1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1D4+1 and multiply the result by 1 1/2 for each missile)"

1.5 * (D4 + 1) which results in a 3 to 7 range per missile.

Otherwise, it would be:

1.5 * D4 + 1 which results in a 2 to 7 range per missile.

 

[Vahktang]

So you believe that the empower applies to the whole numerical effect, not just the variable part (AKA the dice). I'm not saying that you are wrong, but are you aware of anywhere that specificly states this?

That was always my understanding.
The variable on a cure light wounds is not D8, it's D8+x.
So an empowered cure light wounds would be (D8+5*1.5 = 9-19)
And a maximized, empowed cure light wounds would be 19 points.
But isn't that like a 9th level spell?
Wouldn't there be a better use for the slot to heal than a maximized, empowered cure light wounds?

More later,

Vahktang

 

[Storminator]

That was always my understanding.
The variable on a cure light wounds is not D8, it's D8+x.
So an empowered cure light wounds would be (D8+5*1.5 = 9-19)
And a maximized, empowed cure light wounds would be 19 points.
But isn't that like a 9th level spell?
Wouldn't there be a better use for the slot to heal than a maximized, empowered cure light wounds?

More later,

Vahktang

Empowering and Maximizing adds 5 levels.

Healing spells are a poor choice from metamagic, because there is an equivalent at every level. If you only had CLW and Heal, an empowered CLW might not be a bad choice.

But if we use the RoE example, what 6th level spell is going to do 16 (or 14 or 12) points of STR penalty?

PS

 

[Lladnar]

Yes, inside the Empower feat itself for both 3E and 3.5.

"an empowered magic missile deals 1 1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1D4+1 and multiply the result by 1 1/2 for each missile)"

Thank you. I just looked in the PH and there it was. My bad. I've been using the SRD for a while now as it is quicker to find stuff with a search ability, but it doesn't have any of the examples. I must remember to actually look at the books next time I'm confused.

Also should point out, that a M+E Touch of Idiocy is gonna really hurt any enemy spell casters. 7-9 points of Int + Wis + Cha damage. There's a pretty decent chance that it will get rid of their higher spell slots.

 

[Tywyll]

So you believe that the empower applies to the whole numerical effect, not just the variable part (AKA the dice). I'm not saying that you are wrong, but are you aware of anywhere that specificly states this?
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I can't find a ruling one way or the other. If you look at the variable effect as 1-6, with a fixed 5 added on, you would Empower the 1-6. If you see the variable effect as 6-11, you would Empower that. The second method is the one we use in our games.

PS

Considering the feat itself references magic missile and says you roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1.5, I think it would be fairly obvious how it should be handled. A variable, numeric amount is not the same as being told to multiply the total from dice. Ergo, the variable numeric result of the ray of enfeeblement is 6-11, not 1-6.