But...why not GURPS Munchkin?

[bret]

Speaking of the Sultan of Smack thread, where is that? In the archives?

It is in the Rules forum, right here.

As for min/maxing, my experience is that it is almost always done for D20. It is almost a requirement in many games. The same is not true in my experiences with GURPS.

This will vary a lot between groups.

It is a lot easier to detect when a whole group is doing it in GURPS. When that is what the group likes to do, then great! All the more power to them.

In d20, almost everyone does it. If the only reason you take Skill Focus is to qualify for a feat, if you make sure you take that 6th level of a class is for the +1 to all saves, if you are constantly looking at what affect a class choice will have on your BAB, if you choose your race based on favored class rather than what your concept is, you are min/maxing.

The PrCs really seem to make it worse, as people start trying to mix and match the abilities.

 

[jasamcarl]

Uh.....

Perhaps the reason it is more difficult to detect 'munch' (whatever that is) is d20 is because the adverse effects of it are in no way comparable to that of GURPS; d20 is simply more balanced. This is a result of d20's class-based nature. If you want one ability, a number of less relevant abilities are automatically tied with it, whether a lower bab, hit die, lack of spellcasting prog; in gurps, on the other hand, where skills act largly independent of each other (the source of its much hyped flex), a point pays off in a single, desired effect....

food for thought

 

[Vaxalon]

Steve Jackson's ego is too big for his own good. He's attacking D20 when it would do GURPS all KINDS of good. He could easily make a "D20 GURPS" and make many of his sourcebooks D20 compatible - thereby making them accessible to a HUGE market.

But he won't.

Something of a universal standard is coming to gaming (it's about time) and, like betamax, Macintosh, and direct current, he can either get on board or get left behind.

 

[trancejeremy]

Gurps is a munchkin's wet dream...

Why? Because it's point based, which while in theory allows for 'balanced' characters, but in practice, it allows munchkinism to run rampant.

Basically, by taking tons and tons of disadvantages that do not affect a character in combat (like say, Stuttering, or male pattern baldness or fear of sheep), then using those points to give character advantages in combat (or combat ability).

It also lets characters take disadvantages that only give the character points to spend on his character, but basically affect the whole group. The "Hunted" disads, most notably. If someone big nasty group is hunting for one character, in effect, they will also be hunting the group the character is with all the time.

Point based systems work okay in Hero, because it's meant to be a superhero game (and you want to be somewhat munchkiny there, I think)

 

[The Traveler]

Steve Jackson's ego is too big for his own good. He's attacking D20 when it would do GURPS all KINDS of good. He could easily make a "D20 GURPS" and make many of his sourcebooks D20 compatible - thereby making them accessible to a HUGE market.

"D20 GURPS" is a contradiction in terms. GURPS is the rules set, not the setting. To convert GURPS to d20 would defeat the purpose of GURPS.

Something of a universal standard is coming to gaming (it's about time) and, like betamax, Macintosh, and direct current, he can either get on board or get left behind.

Oh, please, spare me the borgish "prepare to be assimilated" rhetoric. There is nothing that says a game has to be d20 to survive, nor that anyone should be obligated to convert to d20 or be doomed to obscurity.

 

[El_Gringo]

GURPS Munchkin?? Isn't that a bit repetitive?

 

[Ace]

Steve Jackson's ego is too big for his own good. He's attacking D20 when it would do GURPS all KINDS of good. He could easily make a "D20 GURPS" and make many of his sourcebooks D20 compatible - thereby making them accessible to a HUGE market.

But he won't.

Something of a universal standard is coming to gaming (it's about time) and, like betamax, Macintosh, and direct current, he can either get on board or get left behind.

QUACK!

Vaxalon, each of the game fills a different niche. D20 serves the Heroic (of course I can fight an army) and Power Up gaming niches.
There are lower powered patches (Cuthulu for example) of course but the game wasn't designed that way.

GURPS otoh was designed for Realistic Simulationist gaming and cinematic gaming. There patches for Supers and heroic gaming of course but thats not what the game was designed for.

GURPS serves a completely different segment of the market.

An Analogy, GURPS is a Pickup truck and D20 is a Ford Taurus, both are cars but they serve a different need. No one suggest that the market needs only one standard type of vehicle....

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I think one of the reasons SJG has survived so long is that it hasn't jumped on whatever bandwagon happened to be rolling by at the moment. The company sticks with GURPS and that's pretty much it. Sure, they put out sourcebooks for all kinds of games, like Vampire and Werewolf, but they never changed their system to another. They simply use their own system to interpret everything. I think it would be cool if they produced a conversion manual for GURPS to d20 and vice versa, but I doubt it'll happen.

What I don't like is that I've been a loyal customer of SJG for well over a decade, and the implication of this latest book is that since I'm a d20 fan, I'm a munchkin. Yeah, I know about the Munchkin game, but I don't think it's any coincidence that the first real product from SJG that mentions d20 in the title also has the word munchkin in that title. Making a joke that pokes fun is great, even if I'm the butt of it; the fact that it's not funny makes it less easy to laugh off.

 

[Tratyn Runewind]

Hello!

Posted by Vaxalon:
He could easily make a "D20 GURPS" and make many of his sourcebooks D20 compatible - thereby making them accessible to a HUGE market.

Given the number of posters around here who say they never play GURPS but buy many sourcebooks anyway, I'd say they were already accessible to a huge market. It's a fringe benefit of having a system with a fair emphasis on realism; materials can be quite easy to convert to other systems with a similar emphasis, even when system mechanics themselves are very different.

Posted by El_Gringo:
GURPS Munchkin?? Isn't that a bit repetitive?

It often amuses me to consider the contradictory arguments of some around here who like to throw rocks at GURPS. What are the two most commonly seen gripes about GURPS on these boards?

• GURPS might be OK for realistic campaign styles, if you can put up with the level of detail, but it's borderline at heroic styles and breaks down completely at high fantasy or superheroic power levels, or
• GURPS panders outrageously to power-tripping munchkins, who can (gasp!) take disadvantages that are largely irrelevant in combat, and use the points thus gained to power their combat abilities up to unbelievable levels.

Odd how the poor unfortunate power-crazed min-maxers seem to have chosen a system that just can't cut it at high power levels...

Posted by ColonelHardisson
I think one of the reasons SJG has survived so long is that it hasn't jumped on whatever bandwagon happened to be rolling by at the moment.

Well, there was the CCG bandwagon, and INWO (though SJ did indeed refuse the seat he was offered on the Magic: The Gathering bandwagon). I like the game, and SJG supposedly did quite nicely off of it, but I suspect it may have cost them some goodwill among their retailers, some of whom were unloading boosters they were stuck with for prices ranging down to as little as ten cents each at one point.

Posted by ColonelHardisson
What I don't like is that I've been a loyal customer of SJG for well over a decade, and the implication of this latest book is that since I'm a d20 fan, I'm a munchkin. Yeah, I know about the Munchkin game, but I don't think it's any coincidence that the first real product from SJG that mentions d20 in the title also has the word munchkin in that title. Making a joke that pokes fun is great, even if I'm the butt of it; the fact that it's not funny makes it less easy to laugh off.

Isn't that essentially the exact same joke Hackmaster makes? You don't seem to have a problem with that (and neither do I), though I will readily acknowledge that Hackmaster seems to be executed much more lavishly. If it's done in the spirit of The Munchkin's Guide to Power Gaming, it should be funny as all heck. That book resembles nothing so much as a book-length expansion of one of my favorite old Dragon articles, the "U 2 Kan Ern Big Bux" quiz, and revels in munchkinism (and RPG'er foibles in general) as much as it pokes fun at it.

 

[Cthulhu]

Munchkins taste good going down!

Seriously, I've never considered GURPS to be a game that promotes munchkinism. I tend to think that it does break down at higher power levels. But overall it is quite flexible.

If I had one complaint about GURPS it would be that its flexible nature makes it particularly vulnerable to abuse by players. But this is easily fixed. The GM just has to keep a close eye or two on things.