D&D 5E Butt end damage with Shillaleagh, quarterstaff and PAM

[ECMO3]

Using Shillaleagh on a quarterstaff and PAM

With Shelleagh "the weapons damage die becomes a d8"

The way I read that you do a d8 on the attack and a d8 on the bonus action with the butt end. Correct?

 

[pukunui]

I asked Jeremy Crawford about this back in 2017. He told me that the damage for the PAM bonus action attack would still be a d4 but that you would be able to use your Wisdom modifier for both the attack roll and the damage roll.

see here: Shillelagh + Polearm Master: damage with a staff still be a d4 or would it be a d8?

 

[Starglim]

It sounds reasonable that the bonus action's damage die is not the weapon's damage die. It's visibly a different size than the weapon's damage die, to start with.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

PAM does 1d4 bludgeoning damage. The damage of the weapon it's used on is immaterial. So you are incorrect, @ECMO3

 

[Charlaquin]

Both Shillaleagh and PAM set the weapon’s damage die, so which takes precedence comes down to which is more specific. Shillaleagh sets the weapon’s damage die to 1d8 at all times. PAM sets the weapon’s damage die to 1d4 for the attack you make with its butt end. The latter is a more specific case than the former, so it takes precedence.

 

[Charlaquin]

PAM does 1d4 bludgeoning damage. The damage of the weapon it's used on is immaterial. So you are incorrect, @ECMO3

Technically Pam does set the weapon’s damage die to a d4 (“The weapon's damage die for this attack is a d4, and it deals bludgeoning damage,”) so I can see why someone would be unsure which of the two features replacing the usual damage die would apply. The answer, of course, is that the more specific one would apply, which in this case is the one that sets the damage die for one specific attack with the weapon, rather than the one that sets the damage die for all attacks with the weapon for a set duration.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Using Shillaleagh on a quarterstaff and PAM

With Shelleagh "the weapons damage die becomes a d8"

The way I read that you do a d8 on the attack and a d8 on the bonus action with the butt end. Correct?

PAM is a specific extra attack with a specific damage die. PAM makes no distinction in the bonus action attack between d6/d8 quarterstaffs and spears and d10 Halberds and Glaves, so I really see no basis to say that changing the normal attack die would have any relationship to the PAM bonus action attack being a d4.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Agreed on 1d4 -- the attack does not use the weapon's damage die in its calculation. As written, PAM does 1d4+STR -- even doing 1d4+WIS requires a judgement, but it is a reasonable judgment to make and (I think) within the parameters of the feat.

 

[ECMO3]

Agreed on 1d4 -- the attack does not use the weapon's damage die in its calculation. As written, PAM does 1d4+STR -- even doing 1d4+WIS requires a judgement, but it is a reasonable judgment to make and (I think) within the parameters of the feat.

PAM never mentions strength.

 

[Kobold Stew]

PAM never mentions strength.

You are right -- never work from memory. My bad.

 

[Charlaquin]

Agreed on 1d4 -- the attack does not use the weapon's damage die in its calculation. As written, PAM does 1d4+STR -- even doing 1d4+WIS requires a judgement, but it is a reasonable judgment to make and (I think) within the parameters of the feat.

That’s not correct. The wording of PAM is “When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon. This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack. The weapon's damage die for this attack is a d4, and it deals bludgeoning damage.”

No mention of Strength (so as Jeremy Crawford says, you could use Wisdom for the attack and damage if you had Shillaleagh cast on the weapon), and it does indeed use the weapon’s damage die; it just changes the weapon’s damage die to a d4 first.

The reason PAM’s damage die replacement wins over Shillaleagh’s damage die replacement is that it’s more specific. It affects one specific attack with the weapon, where Shillaleagh affects the weapon in general.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I would just like to point out to everyone here that PAM says: This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack.

Which for the weapons in PAM is (generally) Strength. And since for all weapon damage: When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier- the same modifier used for the attack roll to the damage.

The part in PAM about the butt-end damage being d4 doesn't contradict the general rules, it is just specifying that regardless of the weapon used for PAM, the butt-end uses a d4 for the weapon damage. PAM doesn't need to mention Strength, it is implied by the rules for general weapon use. If it didn't mean to include Strength, it would specify that.

This also means a PC such as a Monk (who can use DEX for a quarterstaff instead of STR), would apply DEX to damage, even with the butt-end.

So, the butt-end is d4 + Strength (usually ) bludgeoning damage.

EDIT: updated for nit-pickiness...

 

[Charlaquin]

I would just like to point out to everyone here that PAM says: This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack.

Which for the weapons in PAM is (generally) Strength. And since for all weapon damage: When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier- the same modifier used for the attack roll to the damage.

It doesn’t matter that polearm weapons generally use strength because when the weapon is affected by Shillaleagh, it uses Wisdom.

The part in PAM about the butt-end damage being d4 doesn't contradict the general rules, it is just specifying that regardless of the weapon used for PAM, the butt-end is a d4 weapon.

That’s not what it says. It quite specifically says the weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4, not that the weapon’s butt end is a separate weapon with a d4 damage die.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That’s not what it says. It quite specifically says the weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4, not that the weapon’s butt end is a separate weapon with a d4 damage die.

I never said it was a separate weapon, just that using the weapon for that attack has a weapon damage of d4. Weapon damage is modified by the same ability used in the attack roll... in this case, Strength (again, except when monks use DEX), or Wisdom with Shillelagh.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It doesn’t matter that polearm weapons generally use strength because when the weapon is affected by Shillaleagh, it uses Wisdom.

Yeah, I get that, the "usually" was a qualifier because in the case of Monks, they can use DEX.

 

[ECMO3]

I would just like to point out to everyone here that PAM says: This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack.

Which for the weapons in PAM is (generally) Strength. And since for all weapon damage: When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier- the same modifier used for the attack roll to the damage.

Yes it is generally strength but not always, Monks, Warlocks, artificers and the Shillelagh spell being the most obvious exceptions to this and the spell being specific to this thread.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yes it is generally strength but not always, Monks, Warlocks, artificers and the Shillelagh spell being the most obvious exceptions to this and the spell being specific to this thread.

All true, but that wasn't really my point.

My point was to refute posters who believe PAM does not include an ability score for damage with the butt-end attack. Yes, generally it will be 1d4 + STR mod in most cases. However, if a feature/spell allows you to replace STR with something else, e.g. DEX or CHA, you add that modifier to damage for the 1d4 because whatever ability is used for the attack roll is also used for the damage rule.

This is why JC ruled Shillelagh would not make the butt-end 1d8 instead of 1d4, but it still does allow you to use WIS instead of STR for your attack and damage roll with the butt-end attack.