"Buy the numbers" ... for races?

[der_kluge]

As Psion said, I really like Planes & Portals' race tweaking system. I also like UK's CR system as refined in Grim Tales. Good stuff.

Never heard of Planes & Portals. Too lazy to do a google search for that.

Sounds like yet another reason to take a look at Grim Tales.

 

[Crothian]

Never heard of Planes & Portals. Too lazy to do a google search for that.

Fantasy Flight Games written by Mike Mearls.

 

[Crothian]

But, I just can't get over how utterly restrictive d20 can be.

What specifically have you found to be restrictive? My group has actually pushed the boundary with using d20 in different ways and we'vbe found it pretty flexible.

 

[der_kluge]

What specifically have you found to be restrictive? My group has actually pushed the boundary with using d20 in different ways and we'vbe found it pretty flexible.

Primarily the fact that it doesn't lend itself very easy to low magic/low fantasy. Without altering the way the game works, you get wizards flying around casting fireball spells as early as 5th level. Which, that's not to say that that's a bad thing, it's just inherent in the system, and is unavoidable.

I don't like that I can't make a cleric of a god of deception who has Bluff and Intimidate as class skills. Or, why druids can't purge undead, even though they are unnatural creatures. The classes are defined to be what they are, and it's fine, but its restrictive, and the balance is upset if you try to modify it too much. For example, I allowed everyone to choose pick 10 skills as class skills, and it got kind of out of hand. Which skills are available to which classes are fundamental towards balance. If you allow Sorcerers to have Diplomacy as a class skill, there's pretty much zero reason to have a bard class.

It doesn't make sense to me that a half-orc wizard has d4 HD, but a halfling barbarian has d12.

It doesn't make sense to me that every gnome in the world, even ones that grow up in the fantasy equivalent of New York City all can speak to burrowing rabbits, even if they've never met one.

It doesn't make sense to me that a wizard can use a spellcraft roll to see what spell a sorcerer just cast, even though the sorcerer's magic isn't learned, and is very much a personal thing for him.

The fire and forget spellcasting system makes no sense to me.

It doesn't make sense that a Bard, who is supposed to be a learned traveler, who picks up things here and there, has a charisma-based casting system, and can't learn any spells from anyone - as they are borne inately into him.

It doesn't make sense that all halflings should favor the rogue class or that all elves should favor being a wizard more than anything else. If anything, elves should favor ranger or sorcerer, not wizard.


I mean, I could *fix* these things, but that's kind of my point. I could spend a lot of time altering the system, and purchasing things like "Buy the Numbers" or "Elements of Magic" to allow players more customization. I can use "Artificer's Handbook" to fix all the bizarre problems and inconsistencies in the magic item creation system. Or, I can just switch to something like Harp, which I'm very heavily leaning towards. Even HARP may not be perfect, but lately with regards to the direction I want to take my next campaign in, I just find myself butting heads with d20 more and more.

 

[Turjan]

The fire and forget spellcasting system makes no sense to me.

The spell mechanics have nothing to do with forgetting anything. Take a look at "The Dying Earth", then it is clear . Of course, this does not change anything with the fact that you do not like it .

I mean, I could *fix* these things, but that's kind of my point. ... Or, I can just switch to something like Harp, which I'm very heavily leaning towards. Even HARP may not be perfect, but lately with regards to the direction I want to take my next campaign in, I just find myself butting heads with d20 more and more.

Perhaps, you really should have a look at a different game system. Your list touches quite a lot of the fundamental D&D game assumptions (races, classes, magic system, skill mechanics). Therefore, it may be a futile attempt to go and try to "fix" things. Try something else for a change. Maybe, you will love both, standard D&D and the other game, after a while.

 

[Crothian]

Or, I can just switch to something like Harp, which I'm very heavily leaning towards. Even HARP may not be perfect, but lately with regards to the direction I want to take my next campaign in, I just find myself butting heads with d20 more and more.

After reading your points, and you have some good ones, I actually think Fantasy Hero might be more to your liking. I have read both HARP and Fantasy Hero and while they will do the job I think Fantasy Hero might actaully do it a bit better.

 

[Turjan]

After reading your points, and you have some good ones, I actually think Fantasy Hero might be more to your liking. I have read both HARP and Fantasy Hero and while they will do the job I think Fantasy Hero might actaully do it a bit better.

Although I don't know Fantasy Hero, I suppose you are right here. HARP still feels very much like D&D after all . I'd really like to read a playtest review by a D&Der on this one.

Two other options using d20's are Heroquest (much less rules) or Talislanta .

 

[der_kluge]

After reading your points, and you have some good ones, I actually think Fantasy Hero might be more to your liking. I have read both HARP and Fantasy Hero and while they will do the job I think Fantasy Hero might actaully do it a bit better.

My little rant prompted me to go download HARP, which I just did. I'll proceed to print it out at work next week. That'll take me a while, since it's quite large. I'll have to look for Fantasy HERO somewhere. Let me read through HARP first.

Don't get me wrong, I could easily accomplish what I want with d20. I like d20, hell I've played it for so long. There's just so much more I want to do with it that the though of rebuilding all those fundamental things is kind of daunting.

I could implement a "buy the numbers" system for races, with expanded abilities and concepts. Races fixed.
I could buy "Buy the numbers" for classes, and fix the classes. I'd probably add some more class abilities and perhaps take some away. Classes fixed.
I'd like to alter some of the skills since I don't like some (spellcraft comes to mind, and sense motive is a bit weird). I think some feats are more powerful than other feats (skill focus, toughness, perhaps?) so at first glance I really like the HARP has costs for talents (feats).
I like the ideas presented in Elements of Magic, so I'd want to implement that.
I hate the bard class, and I hate half-orcs, and monks, so I'd remove all those. I'd implement an alternative Bard class. I'd want druids, rangers, and paladins as PrCs.
Magic item creation is idiotic and arbitrary at best, so I already spent over a year writing Artificer's Handbook, so that fixes that mess.

*Whew*. So, I could either do all that, or get another system.

 

[der_kluge]

Although I don't know Fantasy Hero, I suppose you are right here. HARP still feels very much like D&D after all . I'd really like to read a playtest review by a D&Der on this one.

Two other options using d20's are Heroquest (much less rules) or Talislanta .

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml

The first review is Joe Kushner, who plays D&D.

 

[WayneLigon]

Primarily the fact that it doesn't lend itself very easy to low magic/low fantasy. Without altering the way the game works, you get wizards flying around casting fireball spells as early as 5th level. ... Even HARP may not be perfect, but lately with regards to the direction I want to take my next campaign in, I just find myself butting heads with d20 more and more.

Try a different game system....