Call of cthulhu D20 or not so D20?

[jdrakeh]

This example is one I will cite in support of d20. Butch could have walked silently, regularly, or banged two pots together while he walked down the hallway, since his attempt has no bearing on the guard's failure.

Ah... I do see what you're saying there and, as I've already said, no system is perfect. I'm merely addressing several of your factually incorrect assertions about BRP CoC. Every time I address one of your complaints though, noting that it's either not based in fact or is an opinion based on a long OOP editon of the game, you immediately seize on something else to use an excuse for dismissing the game out of hand. Simply put, it seems like you're grasping at straws for a reason to say that BRP is broken.

The point is, both systems have their strengths and one is not inherently better than the other all of the way around. Both have their flaws. If I were to pick apart all of the flaws that I perceive in CoC d20, as you have with the flaws that you perceive in BRP CoC, I have no doubt that the lists would be comparable in terms of size. I'm not looking to condemn CoC d20, though (because as I said further up the thread, it's my preferred CoC game) - but at the same time, I'm not out to demonize BRP just because it isn't my preferred system of choice.

As long as you continue to assert that BRP CoC doesn't do things that it, in fact, does do (or that it does do things that it, in fact, doesn't do) I'll be happy to refute those assertions with fact where I can. Like I said, you make some very good points about the system's weaknesses (and, like every game, it has a few), but - and this is a pretty big but - a lot of your other complaints are no longer true, as they've been fixed in more recent versions of the game.

I just don't want somebody reading the thread to think (incorrectly) that BRP CoC doesn't have rules for degrees of success or opposed actions and as a result, choose to not check it out. I mean, there are plenty of reasons that people may not like it (just as there are plenty of reasons one might not like any game), but I'd prefer that they judge a game on those existant flaws, as opposed to ones that no longer exist within the system.

[Quote: Incidentally, the opposed skill check rules are technically presented as optional, given their appearance in the KC, as opposed to the core book. I really dislike that and wish they were in the core book - but they do exist. So, hey - that's better than not exisitng at all, which was the case up until 5.5 edition (IIRC) was released.]

 

[Committed Hero]

It took your example about the interplay between two skills before I could adequately express the issue I was writing about. A few years ago, someone at the a Univ. of Dallas (IIRC) posted a detailed examination of how the two systems treated such situations. But it's long gone, so sorry if I was unclear.

 

[jdrakeh]

But it's long gone, so sorry if I was unclear.

No problems - much like game systems, memories are rarely perfect, either.

 

[billd91]

This example is one I will cite in support of d20. Butch could have walked silently, regularly, or banged two pots together while he walked down the hallway, since his attempt has no bearing on the guard's failure.

Well, not really. It only has no bearing because the guard was so inattentive that a herd of elephants could have gone by (probably fallen asleep again).
In fairness, the example does show that it is possible for a sneak attempt to fail but still not be noticed. And that does make a certain amount of sense. A sneaky person might go unnoticed through no real skill of their own as long as the other character does a bad job of paying attention. That's not so clearly modeled in d20's opposed roll system.

 

[Committed Hero]

Well, not really. It only has no bearing because the guard was so inattentive that a herd of elephants could have gone by (probably fallen asleep again).
In fairness, the example does show that it is possible for a sneak attempt to fail but still not be noticed. And that does make a certain amount of sense. A sneaky person might go unnoticed through no real skill of their own as long as the other character does a bad job of paying attention. That's not so clearly modeled in d20's opposed roll system.

Sure it is. The same result will occur if the guard's roll is lower than the burglar's, which is in turn under whatever DC the Keeper sets. Under the d20 system, however, the two interdependent actions have an effect on each other, which (I submit) is as it should be.

 

[Psion]

I do beleive that d20s skill system is simply superior to BRPs, for reasons that have already been discussed. I also will second kudos to the quality of the GM and mythos section of d20 CoC.

I think d20 CoC chargen really lacks though. I would almost rather plug in d20 modern with ordinaries and ditch the d20 CoC chargen. Or use BRP.

 

[jdrakeh]

The same result will occur if the guard's roll is lower than the burglar's, which is in turn under whatever DC the Keeper sets.

Urm.. no. If the guard's roll result is lower than the burglar's roll and lower than the guard's skill rating, then the guard will hear the burglar. The same result will, in fact, not occur.The only way the same result would be true with the guard's roll being lower than the burglar's, is if said roll is still higher than the guard's skill rating. I know what you're gettting at, mind you, but you seem to have a very hard time stating it due to your unfamiliarity with BRP in general.

The BRP system allows for the reflection of a very real possibility that d20 CoC does not, albeit at the cost of an elegant mechanical relation between both sides of the opposed roll. d20 CoC, on the other hand, defines an elegant relation between both sides of an opposed roll that the BRP system does not, albeit at the cost of some verisimiltude in other areas. In the end, which system is 'better' depends upon what one likes in a game, mechanically speaking.

In this case, I prefer the elegance of the d20 CoC's opposed check system (despite the lacking verisimiltude) to the somewhat clunky BRP opposed skill roll, even though it may allow for more versimilitude in some respects. That said, I'm not going to begrudge others simply because they prefer something that I don't - BRP isn't broken, just different. And again...

I really can't stress enough that trying to critique a system you're obviously unfamiliar with doesn't make for a very convincing argument. There are no DCs in BRP - as I stated earlier, in order to successfully use a skill in BRP, a player need only roll equal to or less than their skill rating on a d% (their skill is rated as a percentage). The Keeper does not assign DCs (or any other kind of purely arbitrary difficulty) in Basic Role Playing.

 

[SWBaxter]

I was going to say what Henry has already said. The D20 CoC is good for building ongoing campaigns.

Oddly enough, I think the opposite is true. CoC d20 is great at catching the Cthulhu flavour in a one shot, but over a campaign the various D&Disms start to grate a bit, such as having your hit points go up whenever you learn something about archaeology. BRP is a bit harder to peg for one shots, but performs really well over a campaign.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I agree with your principle, but I think that the BRP mechanics are so mind-blowingly simple (roll %age dice and compare with your skill) that it is easier to pick up - and there is none of the min-maxing which d20 tends to breed IMX.

Cheers

Good points. However, I do tend to think (based purely on my own experience) that you get "min/maxing" in every game system (in fact, I've seen much worse min/maxing in Shadowrun, Ars Magica, and point-based systems in general than in d20). BRP is no exception: It's generally called "specialization" in CoC. IOW, even BRP Cthulhu is built around the assumption that some players will max out physical ability scores, SAN and combat skills to create bricks, while others will take high mental stats and knowledge skills to fulfil the professor archetype. In fact, this sort of "min/maxing" is essential to a CoC party's completion of most adventures (note that I don't say survival!). Min/maxing in d20 CoC won't change things at all in terms of the tone of horror; IMHO, it's simply not possible to break the game given how weak the PCs are. What "min/maxing" will do is ensure a balanced group with the necessary variety of kills.

 

[Garnfellow]

I think d20 CoC chargen really lacks though. I would almost rather plug in d20 modern with ordinaries and ditch the d20 CoC chargen. Or use BRP.

This is the very method I've used with really great results, after DnDChick:

http://members.aol.com/CountryGrrlHere/cthulhumod.html#herord

I have wondered, though, if Delta Green type characters (with all those military and law enforcement types) would be better modeled with using straight up d20M with just a lower Massive Damage Threshold.

I am currently considering -- just considering, mind you -- a mashup of d20 Cthulhu, Grim Tales, and Green Ronin's True20.

Basically, take the six 20-level base classes from Grim Tales, strip out talents and action points, convert to True20 roles. Convert sanity, magic, and monsters from d20 CoC to True20. Use for a rules-light Call of Cthulhu house system. In my head at least, this seems easy to do and should kick ass at the gaming table.