Can a cleric use Create Undead usefully?

[Runestar]

Ohhh...

So a Neutral/Evil cleric could Command undead using a Rebuke attempt, but a good cleric can't.

I guess good clerics don't usually wander around creating undead, either.

Thanks.

Or the good caster can modify create greater undead with the consecrate spell feat and you now have a morally ambiguous spell with both the good and evil subtypes.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

[EDIT]

I've forked this discussion of using Intimidate to another thread.

[/EDIT]

Unfortunately, Intimidate the skill won't work on Undead, as they are immune to fear....

Hmm, interesting point, and that does kind of make sense... but I can't find that anywhere (at least not in the SRD). Do you have a reference to a clear statement of that in the rules?

All I can find is that Undead are immune to "mind-affecting" effects, which includes "fear attacks". It's not clear to me that Intimidate falls into this category, not least because it's mechanically different.

I really love the idea of a blackguard chastising a ghoul grovelling at his feet with a hefty Intimidate skill, so any reference to set me straight on this would be appreciated!

 

[BrokeAndDrive]

So at level 11 you can create a 2 HD, CR 1, +2 to-hit rot-skinned little bugger.

Just how the heck is a ghoul going to be useful to someone at level 11?

By that level you should be fighting, what, ghaele eladrins?

Unless you cut him up, stuff him full of bottles of oil, throw him at somebody, then hit him with a flaming arrow so he becomes a ghoul bomb. But then again, you can do that with Animate Dead's zombie hordes.

By level 18... excuse me, a tier 1 level 18 (AKA he could easily stand toe-to-toe with a Celestial Exalted) he can create a morgue... morug.. morgh... whatever.

Just how is his +12 slam of 1d6+7 going to do anything but tickle someone with an AC of 33 and 325 hit points? By the way, mature adult gold dragons are immune to paralysis so that's right out.

Oh I'm sure there's a lot of non-combat stuff you could do with these poor bastards, or send them to deal with low-level threats. But do you think any DM is going to let you run these guys separately against weaklings? Actually that sounds interesting.

If there are ways to use CR 5 mummies against, for example, a CR 13 beholder -- except for "hope the beholder eats it so the beholder gets a bellyache" -- it would be interesting to hear about it.

...unless you decide to "level them up" somehow so they get more HD (take them adventuring?). Hope you have a patient DM and can hold off the dozens of annoying paladins trying to kick in your front door all the time.

 

[macrochelys]

Hmm, interesting point, and that does kind of make sense... but I can't find that anywhere (at least not in the SRD). Do you have a reference to a clear statement of that in the rules?

All I can find is that Undead are immune to "mind-affecting" effects, which includes "fear attacks". It's not clear to me that Intimidate falls into this category, not least because it's mechanically different.

I really love the idea of a blackguard chastising a ghoul grovelling at his feet with a hefty Intimidate skill, so any reference to set me straight on this would be appreciated!

From what I could find in the SRD:
- Undead have immunity to all mind-affecting effects

- Fear attacks are mind-affecting effects.

- A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.

 

[HoboGod]

@BrokeAndDrive: Yeah, another thing to whine about, of course. With animate dead, one can make a CR 8 Tyrannosaurus Skeleton no problem at 11th level. By the time create undead can make anything that strong is at 18th level, when a necromancer would have access to create greater undead. I understand that you can't bring a T-Rex Skeleton into most dungeons and it's pretty much the opposite of subtle, but that's merely the extreme example. There are 10 HD creatures which make CR 6 zombies that do just fine for more compact destruction, certainly better than anything below 18th level Create Undead.

However, enough of them together makes some mighty fine cannon fodder while beatsticks and boomsticks make serious dents in the enemy. On the other hand, that's what animate dead is for. *twitch*

On top of my arguments for not requiring inteligent undead, Create Undead seems like the 6-level version of Prestigitation. We have stories of wizards waving their hands and dishes cleaning themselves and book pages turning on their own, so comes a mechanically worthless spell to do ALL that stuff: Prestigitation. We have stories of ghouls, mummies, and things which go bump in the night being spawned from evil magic, so comes a mechanically worthless spell do that, too, in the form of Create Undead.

When story time comes and the DM says a powerful wizard created a ghoul long, long ago which still plagues the night, if a player says "How'd he do that? Are you making up rules?" the DM can just say "Nope, here's the spell he casted."

 

[jefgorbach]

Granted you cant do much with a Trex, but you could use this 6th level spell to provide access to a Xth level ghastly humanoid cohort.

One way: scout the local tavern for potential "recruits" then trigger a bar-fight and have a hireling kidnap your selection from the local jail to a prearranged location to weaken as needed from drowning, starvation, venom, etc while you Create Undead(ghoul). Allow it to deliver the death blow then "rescue" the subject to a safe-place to rise as an Ghast (having 4+hd) needing shelter/instruction as it adjusts to its new unlife.

Although an effective way to eliminate clerics/paladins, doing so with other classes would produced Ghastly cohorts retaining their previous abilities.

 

[HoboGod]

Okay, THERE is something where I'd see Create Undead being worth taking. If I could kill a Fighter 7 and raise him as an intelligent undead which retains all of it's class levels (provided I can convince the DM to let me), it would be a valuable asset to my unholy army.

 

[jefgorbach]

I'm sure WOTC/Pazio provide plenty of example classed undead if you dig thru the books/magazines but convincing your GM should be easy enough if he accepts RAW.

"Characters who take levels in an undead monster class retain all their normal class abilities, with one exception: A cleric who becomes undead loses any ability to turn undead, but gains the ability to rebuke undead." -- Liber Mortis, p35