Can a dozen orcs challenge a 17th level party?

[Anson Caralya]

Fair enough. From the title of your thread, I was expecting "Tucker's Kobolds" for v.3.5. Hmmm, maybe I'll start such a thread...

 

[genshou]

Those orcs are dead meat! This actually inspired me for an idea that will make my high-level characters feel "cool": next time I have high-level characters that is! :O

The idea is that the party has the "bad luck" of running into an advancing orc warhorde. Of course, for a party at the example level of 17, this is nothing. The idea will be that the PCs will have to split up and each one will take on orcs in a slightly different area. Watch the ranks flee in terror as a wildshaped dire bear comes from one direction, a huge man with a blazing 6' sword from another, and sheets of flame begin sweeping across their forces from a frail robed man flying through the skies, against whom arrows simply seem to bounce off! The PCs get to use their coolness ability to crush cannon fodder rapidly, and because of their interference, a nearby, relatively defenseless town is spared. The orcs don't give any XP, but saving the town would certainly award ad hoc story XP.

 

[Slobber Monster]

I guess it would help if we knew something about your party's typical method of operation. The problem I have with this is that groups of that level tend to put a bit of effort into not being detected or suprised by their actual enemies, so it's not likely that these precautions could be overcome by a group of orcs. High level parties also don't tend to travel much by conventional means, and tend to go rather directly from location to location with some sense of purpose. So they're not likely to be found randomly running into low level encounters while strolling along outside of town on a woodland path.

So all of that makes it pretty hard to come up with a scenario whereby the orcs actually get to initiate the attack on the PC's. How would the orcs even know the group's location? How could they approach within attack distance without being detected by the party's scout (who will probably have at least a +15 to listen while asleep)? The answer should be simple - they can't. If orcs could suprise the party so easily - why hasn't some more powerful enemy already taken advantage of this to put a serious hurt on them already?

 

[genshou]

I guess it would help if we knew something about your party's typical method of operation. The problem I have with this is that groups of that level tend to put a bit of effort into not being detected or suprised by their actual enemies, so it's not likely that these precautions could be overcome by a group of orcs. High level parties also don't tend to travel much by conventional means, and tend to go rather directly from location to location with some sense of purpose. So they're not likely to be found randomly running into low level encounters while strolling along outside of town on a woodland path.

So all of that makes it pretty hard to come up with a scenario whereby the orcs actually get to initiate the attack on the PC's. How would the orcs even know the group's location? How could they approach within attack distance without being detected by the party's scout (who will probably have at least a +15 to listen while asleep)? The answer should be simple - they can't. If orcs could suprise the party so easily - why hasn't some more powerful enemy already taken advantage of this to put a serious hurt on them already?

Remember that the PCs are returning to the area and specifically want to open a can of whoop-orc on their prior foes. Traveling conventionally is entirely appropriate in this case.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Put the orcs and the PCs in a dangerous environment and have the orcs use manuevers like bull rush and trip to use that environment against the PCs. Opposed attribute checks scale but they scale a lot more slowly. A 17th level PC fighter might have +14 to the strength checks, at which point it's still possible for him to lose to a first level orc with +4 (or +8 with a feat). A character not optimized for strength or dexterity will be a more even fight.

Now, the 17th level characters will survive being pushed off 200 foot cliffs or into a flow of lava (even if they end up immersed), but the threat of those kind of environmental effects will make the orcs seem menacing.

 

[genshou]

Put the orcs and the PCs in a dangerous environment and have the orcs use manuevers like bull rush and trip to use that environment against the PCs. Opposed attribute checks scale but they scale a lot more slowly. A 17th level PC fighter might have +14 to the strength checks, at which point it's still possible for him to lose to a first level orc with +4 (or +8 with a feat). A character not optimized for strength or dexterity will be a more even fight.

Now, the 17th level characters will survive being pushed off 200 foot cliffs or into a flow of lava (even if they end up immersed), but the threat of those kind of environmental effects will make the orcs seem menacing.

If a dozen by-the-book orcs ever get close enough to your 17th-level PCs to bull rush them, shoot your players. Repeatedly. With a shotgun of wounding.

 

[Numion]

It's one thing to use Control Winds once the orcs attack but to simply make the weather nice all the time? Seems like an abuse of a power. Like using create water instead of going over to the well.

Create Water abuse of power? Not in my book. I'd use it all the time as needed.

As for the hands-on approach, does your game have good gods send clerics/minions out to whomp on those doing evil? Do evil gods send clerics/minions out to do evil? Chaos gods to wreak havoc? Law gods to form order?

Basically no. The gods don't send people or angels on such mundane missions. The high priest or whatever is responsible for that, and most of the other worldly matters. Anyway, I think that the god of good weather would then again be happy about the good weather, and he / she should send similar powers to ensure it's continuation, if they indeed are 'hands-on'. Do the gods do this stuff all the time, or just when the PCs are involved, and then only by gods that oppose their actions, and not by gods who have interests similar to the PCs?

If you go around screwing with the weather, specifically making everything nice and purty, you are stomping on the weather/storm god's purvue as much or moreso than killing babies irritates a god of good & life. He's not good or evil per se, he likes storms. And these little nuisances keep stopping them. Gods of the storm should be fairly capricious and prone to overreaction so sending a messenger with Mark o Justice is actually fairly restrained. Proper Deus Ex Machina for a god of storms should be the thunderbolt from the blue when they get on his nerves.

I think that you just don't like the PCs flaunting their power, which in my book is a good thing. They've gained the power and probably deserve it. Of course some powers would see them discontinue it, the clerics of bad weather for example. But there are always opposite powers, and it's just going to end up in a pissing contest between the gods if they're all eager to send their minions to rectify things.

So, what I'd do was to maybe send some clerics after the PCs, yes, but not with an order directly from the god. On the opposite side some entities that like good weather would be on the PCs side (probably clerics too).

 

[Baragos]

I am looking for bells and whistles, but not changes to the entire encounter structure.

There aren't bells and whistles big enough to turn a dozen standard orcs into anything that won't be over in 2 rounds, tops, against 17th level characters...

Do many DMs do that? Hand wave over the easy fights and have you only fight the hard ones. I've never had a DM do that. Seems very unsatisfying.

I have had a DM hand wave over the end of a fight after we got very far ahead, and we were all disappointed we didn't get to personally kill the bad guy, but only read about it in the campaign journal

No risk fights are not funny to play, it wastes time. Now, if the players want to try how it would be to kill a bunch of orcs with their 17th level characters, then go ahead...it serves a purpose of sorts...but you'd be better off giving each orc a few npc levels (warrior 4 or 5)...it is not unreasonable to think that a culture that embraces fighting as the orcs do it, would have a fair amount of 4th-5th level warriors, lead by a slightly higher level shaman and perhaps a ranger (guide). I know it wasn't what you asked for, but it would be more interesting that way...

16 4th-level orc warriors, lead by a 10th-level orc adept and a 9th level orc ranger would be an EL 13 (in the very low end, as a single spell would still take out most of the orcs. Giving them a little tactical benefit would help...archers, or perhaps javelin throwers, from a high ridge could harass the party wizard or sorcerer for a round or two...orcs armed with longspears would also have a clear benefit...and the adept can use some spells that help the orcs (morale and other bonuses to attacks and saves), while the ranger could do some damage from hiding with a bow against his favored enemy...Surprise is a must...and even then I douobt the orcs would do much damage...but remember that aid another is an option...if 2 orcs with longspears assisted a third orc with a longspear, they'd grant him +4 to hit...and if you mix the lenght of spears up to 7 could assist one orc (2 with spears, 3 with longspears) for a +14 bonus to attack roll.

 

[maggot]

So I ran this encounter last night. And it lasted a few rounds. I think the players were a bit concerned that something bigger might be coming (party my doing with the stage setting, and party because they didn't think they'd be facing simple orcs).

I used two waves of orcs, which helped a bunch to keep the combat going for long enough for everyone to shine. Plus the shaman got some good use out of his silence spell before he bought it. It made the players think they should be using silence more as they did when they were low-level.

I wanted to include some innocent bystanders to make nuking the area harder, but the players got the jump on the orcs. However, the party wanted prisoners to interrogate, so the use of area of effect spells was limited anyway. Orc archers spread out and hiding behind rocks wasn't much use because of the ranger and improved precise shot.

One of the orcs scored a lucky crit with a greataxe on the sorcerer, who was overconfident and away from the rest of the party. The sorcerer responded a finger of death on the poor guy. A little bit of overkill.

All said, it was a good time.

 

[Altalazar]

Short answer to the title of this thread: No.

Long answer to the title of this thread: NFWIH.

Assuming they are a decently equiped party for the level, it is very likely the orcs wouldn't even be able to hit them without a natural 20.

You could play out the combat for 20 rounds with the players all just sitting on their hands and waiting and the orcs would still probably not be able to kill a single 17th level character.

Put simply, the only sort of encounter that would be a challenge would be a purely roleplaying encounter - perhaps the orcs know something or have a hostage hidden somewhere or something like that. Even then, at 17th level, most parties would have magic that could force the orcs to tell and there's not much the orcs could do about it.