Can a dozen orcs challenge a 17th level party?

[Klaus]

You might also want to consider using the Mob template from the DMG 2 (mob = swarm for larger creatures).

 

[DrZombie]

Give them an ancient red dragon pet, each. That should make it interresting. .

I like the way your players think. However, if they reached 17th level, some of the orcs would be higher level as well. But they'll find that out when they wipe-out the scouts and kill the chief's son. Or something like that. In response the chief will attack again. Maybe unite the tribes just to kill the characters. Raid a town to raise a bounty on their heads. Sell his soul and that of a thousand slaves to Baalzamon to get revenge. Whatever.

Or they can slaughter all the orcs. Tribe by tribe. Cleanse the lands from the orcish threat. Lead a bunch of settlers there and become barons. Buold a castle and hold the frontiers. Offcourse, now that the orcs are gone the neigbouring land sees that the border is clear and decides to invade.

[ancient wisdom voice] there is no action without consequence. Noone can forsee all that his actions will bring [/ancient wisdom voice]

 

[buzzard]

Coyote is right

Since the idea is versimilitude, the only reasonable approach would be to run it as you would have run it before. Any modifications would be cheese. These Orcs don't know any better.

I guess you could introduce a dash of caution since the PCs will be in obviously better armor, and the weapons might look better. However, the issue becomes at what point do the Orcs get a clue and wave off the attack?

I mean if I'm Mr. Mook Orc, and I see a party with fighters wearing very nice plate armor, with little rocks floating around their heads, and wizards either engaging in overland flight, riding phantom steeds, or otherwise manifesting significant power, I will not screw with the group. Orcs may not be real smart, but they probably aren't that dumb.

I guess the question really is, how outwardly apparent are the manifestations of the PCs power. Are they still dressed like a level 4 party? If so the orcs should act the same. If they appear to be rather higher on the food chain, you'll have to be careful at what point the Orcs would simply pass. The simple truth is that either the Orcs are plenty dumb and willing to attack anything, which means any preparation is probably out of character, or if smart enough to prepare, they are likely to back off.

buzzard

 

[Zephyrus]

Okay... you want to find a way to make it at least a little bit bothersome for the characters to take em on. here's an idea I've been formulating since I read this post yesterday. Now Since the party hasent been around to ruin their plans who's to say these Orc's havent been able to become a little successful on their own and have some cash and resources to make the party's return at least a little bit of a nusience.

Re-equip/feat the Orc's with Spike Chains. Position them so that their is a 15ft space between each of them so they have overlaping threatening area's but cannot be cleaved (even after a 5ft step). Make the Orc Leader a Fighter2/Bard2 and equip him with A spiked chain as usual as well as Combat Expertice and either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip. the 'Shaman' can be a 3rd level Wizard or a 4th level sorcerer. Either way, have them have a familiar.

Further, Equip Orc's with smokesticks (noxious even) and alchemist fire, frost and spark as well as potions of Invisibility and Oil of True Strike and Oil of Magic Weapon. The Orc's start Invisible with their weapons oiled with magic weapon. The Warleader when the party reachs predetermined points starts to sing (inspire). This triggers readied actions on the part of the 'Shaman' to have the familiar set off pre-prepared light catapults loaded with alchemist fire like ammo. The Invisible Orc's oil their weapons at this time with True Strike. The Orcs should still be considered invisible at this point.

The following round some of hte orc's throw noxious smoke sticks. These orc's are the 'rear' rank. They are not trying to hit anything but a target spot on the ground. they want to get near the party not hit them directly. Consider having the road already covered in caltrops as well and covered in leaves or light dirt. Have their be traps on the side of the road should anyone try to go around. If they try to fly over have the Shaman have a readied action to activate an arrow swarm trap to attack certain aerial area's. Without Evasion in many cases 1/2 damage is still gonna cause some damage weather from alchemist fire or reflex save based traps. Anyone passing into the threatened area of the Orc's is gonna provoke an AoO, however wait till the player is in the midst of several orcs where theirs a chance that if possible 2, 3 or even 4 can attack a single target at once. The target is considered flat-footed cause they are being attacked by surprize from an invisible target. Maybe if your willing set up the basic orc's as 1st level Rogues instead of generic Orcs (they will still be 1 HD). Combined with True Strike and the bardic music theirs a good chance they will hit even higher AC's. Maybe position the War Leader so that he is the one that gets the first attack at which time he'll attempt to disarm or trip. The Leader appearing can be the cue for the others to make their AoO's.

Smoke sticks will foil ranged attacks or force archers to move into positions that might provoke an AoO before they can make a shot. Consider having the Orcs making hte AoO attempt a Disarm or a Sunder attack on the bow. Have the orc's fight a battle where they give up ground but only so that they position the party into positions where new traps await. Have the Orcs where light armor so they can move fully and even make Run movements. Unless they are threatened the reach of a spike chain will allow them to disengage simple by running away. Party members in heavy armor wont be able to persue. Liberal use of smoke sticks will make getting LOS hard.

Just because its its a bunch of low CR Orc's doesnt mean you cant make the situation a higher CR. Enough traps or good enough traps can really pump the CR. In addition superior equipment can bump the CR as well.The reason I Suggested a level 3 Wizard is that it can take Brew Potion and has scribe scroll. If your worried bout the XP cost say they utilized a sacrifice or something similar or that the XP cost was negiligable.

Give the Leader Ranks in Craft [Trapmaking] and Profession [Seige Engineer] to justify things if need be. The Idea here is that the Orc's prolly know that the Party is too powerful for them. Thats why they've made all these traps and stuff. They wont stand and fight, they'll strike and run and get in as many AoO they can. Change Energy types (using Alchemist Frost and Alchemist Spark and Acid so that attempts to use Energy Resistance Spells are less effective. Use Poisons as well if you can. Maybe have one of the catapults throw an inhailed poison into the party's midst. This should expecially mess with anyone that has poor Fort Saves. Good Reflex AND Good Fortitude are not that common. High DC poisons are expensive yes, but you only need a few doses possible or maybe have the Shaman have Craft [Poison Making].

Have the Shaman ready with a Wand of Magic Missile Caster Level 3 with a readied action to use it on anyone attempting to cast a spell. Adding +4 to +10 to the Concetration check DC to cast a spell while being injured will put a cramp on the party's ability to use magic. Acid Arrow is a great spell too as it has ongoing Damage again complicating spellcasting.

Maybe have them have Hostages. Just for kicks have them have take some evil people hostage too. It'll sure choke up anyone using a Holy Word spell and suddenly seeing the hostage fall too. A Evil Merchant or similar can be evil for reasons other than that he's a murder or similar. Yes he might be evil but in this case they will still be an innocent victim too. Hostages will allow mitigate somewhat area effect spells.

How can you justify all the expenses going into this ambush? Well the Evil Merchant hostage scenario could help. Maybe he had dealings with the orcs and they double crossed him and used his money to fund their trap. Perhaps theirs another 'villian' in the area that funded and supplied the Orc's in an effort to test the party's mettle. Maybe they are hoping that the Orcs might wear the party down. Maybe its a Dragon that spent its horde helping the Orc's and is waiting for hte Party to be weakened before it attacks. Being a younger dragon it knew it had no chance engaging them directly (They killed Mom/Dad already) and is thinking they will be able to recoupe their expense by recovering the party's equipment as treasure.

thoughts?

 

[Numion]

Further, Equip Orc's with smokesticks (noxious even) and alchemist fire, frost and spark as well as potions of Invisibility and Oil of True Strike and Oil of Magic Weapon. The Orc's start Invisible with their weapons oiled with magic weapon. The Warleader when the party reachs predetermined points starts to sing (inspire). This triggers readied actions on the part of the 'Shaman' to have the familiar set off pre-prepared light catapults loaded with alchemist fire like ammo. The Invisible Orc's oil their weapons at this time with True Strike. The Orcs should still be considered invisible at this point.

One, on the whole this sounds like a very contrived plan, and pretty unlikely for a bunch of orcs. Two, it wouldn't work. 17th level characters, that I've seen in games, always have at least one character who can see invisible, either permanently or with extended spells. Even if they didn't they might notice the invisible orcs with spot or listen checks (and they know something's up when they hear orcish singing). Once you lose surprise, the whole plan falls to pieces. Battlefield mobility is never going to be on the orcs side. No 17th level character I've seen actually moves at speed 20. They either fly, have boots, mithril armor, or whatever.

This means that once alerted to the orcs presence, the party has much more freedom in dealing with them. Go airborne, pick them from above, shoot arrows. But the hostages are a good idea. A little difficulty

 

[Zephyrus]

Yes, they would hear the orc chanting but thats 'one orc'. The others would remain invisible and the Catapult would be fired as a ready action based on the chanting. The DM could make it out to be some kind of war cry or similar and not have it be so obvious that its a Bardic Music Ability. The Smashing alchemist fire etc would serve to direct the party's attention tword the seige machinery.

Readied actions to activate the anti-airborne threat would release Traps against aerial targets. Readied actions with the wand will challenge casters ability to cast flight or mobility spells. Yes the Party knows theirs an Orc(s) out their. But they have alot of noise going on from exposions of siege weaponry, the chant and maybe throw in some thunderstones they will be too busy to make listen or spot checks against the invisible Orcs. Not unless they actually spend an action to do so. Otherwise I'd rule they are metagaming (I mean unless they've encounter this trick before... Look-Out Seige weaponry is being fired at us and a couple of orcs up ahead are throwing smoke sticks, be on the listen for invisible Orcs!).

The surprize is not that you suddenly have a dozen orcs attacking. the surprize is of Invisible Orcs with true-striking spiked chains are suddenly attacking them via an AoO and then is dropping smoke and fleeing which then comes to create surprize number two when the party runs over/through/into their traps.

If the original Invisibilities were cast from scrolls then the Orc's could consume the potions after they've run out of LOS of the party and prepare to get another AoO on them. Have the orc's attempt to sunder ranged weapons like bows or crossbows. With Wands of Magic Missile and readied actions you can zap spellcasters attempting to cast spells to limit thier ability to use magic.

Also. I'm talking about them actually doing a RUN movement. Medium armor WILL slow them down unless they power up their speed. Yes their's mithril and Haste effects but what I'm getting at is the orcs dont have to make it easy. If the setting is wooded, flight wont do the party any good as the tree canopy will block LOS. I wouldent put it across the Orc's to set the entire woods on fire.

This all contributes to keeping the party on the ground and the Orc's spread out insuring everyone will get a chance to kill an orc and that it wont be over in a blink of an eye.

Edit: As for the ability to see Invisible.. yes that does present a problem. But their was no real mention of the party doing that and if its via spells they have to proactively cast it. If its via an item or similar then yeah. that does cause a problem. As for it being beyond the Orc's means to plan this... I did suggest that their might be a master mind behind it. Besides.. 17th level characters will have alot of enemies (they generally have only killed the ones they know about... their is often plenty more that they dont).

 

[Slobber Monster]

The idea of having the orcs get the drop on the PC's is simply ludicrous. If anything the PC's are likely to be traveling in a manner which would make it impossible for the orcs to avoid being suprised - Wind Walk, Phantom Steed, Shadow Walk, etc. There's no reason for the PC's to encounter the orcs at all if they don't want to, and in any event it will be on the PC's terms.

I think captives are about the only way to make this interesting without going to incredibly contrived lengths. At least then the PC's have to exercise some care to resolve the situation without hurting innocents. Start with the orcs very spread out and busy finishing off the Disabled and Dying members of a caravan or something. If the PC's are somehow so clumsy as to fail to suprise the orcs, then they will have a Mexican standoff on their hands, as orcs threaten to Coup de Grace innocents if the PC's do not back off. This should still be easily resolvable for the PC's in any number of ways, but it at least provides them the opportunity to do something neat before the slaughter commences.

 

[buzzard]

Edit: As for the ability to see Invisible.. yes that does present a problem. But their was no real mention of the party doing that and if its via spells they have to proactively cast it. If its via an item or similar then yeah. that does cause a problem. As for it being beyond the Orc's means to plan this... I did suggest that their might be a master mind behind it. Besides.. 17th level characters will have alot of enemies (they generally have only killed the ones they know about... their is often plenty more that they dont).

If the Orcs are not actively hiding while invisible, the spot check to detect their presence is only DC 20. For a level 17 party this is trivial.

Though as elaborate as the plan is, this takes some pretty savvy orcs. I'd say they'd be savvy enough to not feed themselves into the meat grinder that tangling with level 17 characters amounts to.

buzzard

 

[daBooj]

Coyote is 6/6ths right. Don't try to challenge them so much. But make it fun.

let the orcs be setting up an ambush.

let the players spot it.

give them something like, "You're pretty darned sure that was an orc you saw darting behind the tree. In fact, you heard his friend hiss, 'GET DOWN! THEY'LL SEE YOU!!!,' quite clearly. Each of you can't help but notice the smiles spreading across one another's faces. There are 12 orcs getting ready to ambush you, here they are on the map. They seem oblivious to your having seen them. This should be fun, make your time!"

Now the players know what is going on, and they know that this encounter would have hurt if they were 3rd level or something. But now they get to play with some live meat.

If your players are a fun loving bunch they should let this encounter last as long as possible and should have as much fun with it as they can. Your job done, the consitancy of the world is upheld, the players get what they wanted, evil has been squelched.

(but do your good players shift towards evil for playing with their game? Prey tell! I've never been good at divining what was evil and what was fun. The two seem the same half the time.)

 

[Zephyrus]

If the Orcs are not actively hiding while invisible, the spot check to detect their presence is only DC 20. For a level 17 party this is trivial.

not nessisarly... but more or less if one spots they all spot..

Though as elaborate as the plan is, this takes some pretty savvy orcs. I'd say they'd be savvy enough to not feed themselves into the meat grinder that tangling with level 17 characters amounts to.

I would like to think that I created that plan with my hands tied. Smart Orcs able to present a challenge would be smart enough not to do it without having a horde behind them or would be of higher level.. Thats why I aluded to someone else acting as a master mind. Yes its far fetched but I was trying to find a way to actively challenge the group at least some. otherwise.. as daBooj/Coyote said.

Theirs no way to keep it from being a complete slaughter and a disapointment short of the players excersizing some restraint and playing with the enemy.