Can a dozen orcs challenge a 17th level party?

[Mystery Man]

I prefer to see it as spending my time, but I'm probably spending it on something most people don't consider worthwhile.



That assumes that the 17th level party knows what they are fighting. In general, PCs reply to any type of violence with extreme prejudice. I can't image my PCs sitting around waiting for their opponents to get lucky. They would be too afraid that the orc were holding back waiting for the party to over commit.

Are you doing this to further along some sort of plot device? Does it really, really have to be a combat encounter? Can you turn it around into something interesting like orcs in (dire need such that only a 17th level party can handle) of help/rescue? Or possibly they can come to the party under a flag of parley? Keep it interesting without combat and turn it into a roleplaying scenario.

 

[Mystery Man]

Do many DMs do that? Hand wave over the easy fights and have you only fight the hard ones. I've never had a DM do that. Seems very unsatisfying.

I have had a DM hand wave over the end of a fight after we got very far ahead, and we were all disappointed we didn't get to personally kill the bad guy, but only read about it in the campaign journal.

Heh, no by hand wave I mean one of the PC's goes up and waves his hand and the orcs die while the rest of the party stands by and snickers.

 

[Wrahn]

A lot depends on what kind of party you have and what kind of game. I know in the games I play, if a group of orcs, by all means of detection appeared as nothing but a group of normal orcs, we would let the fighters clear them without wasting resources (like spells) to defeat them.

By you initial description, I am guessing you are not looking to defeat or even seriously challenge the PCs, if this is the case, I would use tone to give the idea that they will need their big guns for something other than orcs (i.e. As you are going through the woods, there is the sound of something huge pushing its way through the trees. As you stop to listen, a group of orcs in tarnished mail break into the clearing. They look like they are running from whatever is making the noise. They also, in their bestial stupidity, seem like they are about to attack.)

Even if the huge thing is nothing more than a ghost sound, the player are probably going to be more worried about it than the non-threat of the orcs.

 

[maggot]

Are you doing this to further along some sort of plot device? Does it really, really have to be a combat encounter?

Yes, it needs to be a combat encounter against 1st level orcs. No plot device, just request of the players, and verisimilitude. The party is returning to an area of the world where they started their adventuring years. The area is known for its vicious orc raiders. The party was on the receiving end of these raids many times.

Now the PCs are great and powerful heroes. They are returning to the area on another quest, and have commented how nice it will be to face orcs instead of dragons. They are looking forward to an easy fight.

I won't steal the encounter from them by not playing it out. I won't have the orcs magically not be there, or know not to attack these PCs, or change this part of the world to be now orc-free. The orcs haven't been eradicated or reformed. I won't steal the encounter this way. I won't have the orcs suddenly all be high-level barbarians and clerics. These will be the same orc raiders from the previous encounters.

So I will play out the dozen 1st level orcs like when the party was 4th level. That's what the players want. It will make the world seem more real, and will reinforce the fact the PCs are movers and shakers of the world. Sure it will be one sided. Sure it won't take long. But it might be fun. Maybe. The more planning I put into it, the more likely it is fun. And if it isn't fun, the players won't ask for it again. And that will mean more fun in the future.

 

[diaglo]

i'd do it like Numion is saying.

but still don't forget the PCs gain absolutely no xp for killing the orcs.

 

[Mystery Man]

Yes, it needs to be a combat encounter against 1st level orcs. No plot device, just request of the players, and verisimilitude. The party is returning to an area of the world where they started their adventuring years. The area is known for its vicious orc raiders. The party was on the receiving end of these raids many times.

Now the PCs are great and powerful heroes. They are returning to the area on another quest, and have commented how nice it will be to face orcs instead of dragons. They are looking forward to an easy fight.

I won't steal the encounter from them by not playing it out. I won't have the orcs magically not be there, or know not to attack these PCs, or change this part of the world to be now orc-free. The orcs haven't been eradicated or reformed. I won't steal the encounter this way. I won't have the orcs suddenly all be high-level barbarians and clerics. These will be the same orc raiders from the previous encounters.

So I will play out the dozen 1st level orcs like when the party was 4th level. That's what the players want. It will make the world seem more real, and will reinforce the fact the PCs are movers and shakers of the world. Sure it will be one sided. Sure it won't take long. But it might be fun. Maybe. The more planning I put into it, the more likely it is fun. And if it isn't fun, the players won't ask for it again. And that will mean more fun in the future.

Then I will second diaglo's agreement with Numion. But I would let them know you'll honor some good Roleplaying XP, have them share some of the burden in keeping the encounter interesting.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Using orcs straight from the MM (unaugmented by character levels or magic items) will have trouble Coup de Gracing most 17th level charaters (with flat footed ACs of 25 or more easily) let alone doing anything in a toe to toe fight. Even if 8 orcs all flank the same guy and 4 orcs toss javelins at him they'll be lucky to hit.

 

[Drowbane]

Do many DMs do that? Hand wave over the easy fights and have you only fight the hard ones. I've never had a DM do that. Seems very unsatisfying.

I have had a DM hand wave over the end of a fight after we got very far ahead, and we were all disappointed we didn't get to personally kill the bad guy, but only read about it in the campaign journal.

I do not hand wave easy fights. However, 4+ 17th lvl Characters vs 12 "normal MM" Orcs is *not* a fight. Its not even close to a fight. Any one of those 17th lvl characters could solo those 12 orcs without breaking a sweat. Its a massacre. S L A U G H T E R. So, unless I was just throwing orcs at the party for some storyline point... I'd hand wave this. Of course, if my party of 17th lvl Characters was fighting Orcs... they wouldn't be just 1st lvl MM orcs. They'd have Bbn Levels and some pet ogres (who had bbn lvls)...

 

[Agback]

This of course begs the question "what is a 17th level group doing on a bridge?"

Crossing a moat?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Do many DMs do that? Hand wave over the easy fights and have you only fight the hard ones. I've never had a DM do that. Seems very unsatisfying.

If the fight would consist of "I cast fireball" (from a 17th level caster) "You win" then I will hand wave it. Or even better "I attack with my staff" (from a 17th level caster) "You win." The PCs will almost undoubtedly suffer no damage. They could ignore the orcs and continue on their way, like I've done in MMORPGs: attack a creature, and let it follow you around for a few hours as it tries to kill you.

An easy fight would be a group of 17th level characters against a few mind flayers and their fire giant guards. This isn't even on their radar. It's a massacre.