Can a monk with natural weapons use them in a flurry?

[apesamongus]

"When using flurry of blows,"
"When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat,"
"When using" and "when you use" are structured differently. "When you eat a lot of food, you are likely to gain weight." "When eating a lot of food, you are likely to gain weight." The second says that the weight gain happens only while the eating is happening, the other merely shows correlation.

 

[Sil]

Patryn of Elvenshae, I ask patience, as you have probably explained this numerous times, but I have not had it explained to me. If you prefer to link me to a previous explanation that is fine/preferred.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

1)Whirlwind substitutes for a full round action does it not?

2)Is not the use of cleave/TWF explicitly banned when using whirlwind in place of your full round action?

3)How do you use your full round action, and still have time for extra things? Feats like TWF and Cleave specifically add attacks, but one cannot use OTHER feats when using Whirlwind, correct?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

1)Whirlwind substitutes for a full round action does it not?

No. Whirlwind Attack, like Flurry of Blows, is an option you may elect to employ whenever you take the Full Attack action. Accordingly, it follows all the rules about Full Attacks (including a 5' step allowed in before, after, or between any two attacks).

2)Is not the use of cleave/TWF explicitly banned when using whirlwind in place of your full round action?

Cleave / TWF are not generically banned when you use the Full Attack action. It is, however, specifically banned "while using Whirlwind Attack," per the text of the feat. However, if the logic of the "natural weapons after a flurry" group holds, then WWA ends as soon as you make your last WWA, and you may then employ any additional attacks you desire.

For example, let's assume there are three potential targets for you to attack. Under my reading, once you attack each of them, your full attack and your WWA are finished.

Under the others' reading, once you attack each of them, your WWA is finished, but not your full attack. Therefore, if I kill the last guy I attack, I may now Cleave, because the limitations of WWA no longer apply.

3)How do you use your full round action, and still have time for extra things? Feats like TWF and Cleave specifically add attacks, but one cannot use OTHER feats when using Whirlwind, correct?

One can certainly use other feats when making a WWA - like weapon specialization and weapon focus, for instance - you just can't get any bonus or extra attacks, but only so long as the restrictions on WWA hold. If the restrictions on WWA run out before my full attack action does (which is what the other side is arguing), then there is no longer anything preventing me from using them.

 

[Tetsubo]

Is there any reason you couldn't have a Feat that made Natural Weapons function as Monk Weapons? If Ebberon can have longspears and longswords as Monk Weapons, Natural Weapons don't seem unreasonable...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Is there any reason you couldn't have a Feat that made Natural Weapons function as Monk Weapons? If Ebberon can have longspears and longswords as Monk Weapons, Natural Weapons don't seem unreasonable...

Nah - in fact, someone suggested just such a feat somewhere upthread (as a more generic version, applicable to all weapons).

Given the prereqs, it likely wouldn't be overpowered.

EDIT: Err, overpowered.

 

[Thanee]

However, if the logic of the "natural weapons after a flurry" group holds, then WWA ends as soon as you make your last WWA, and you may then employ any additional attacks you desire.

Wasn't that in the FAQ, too? Could've been 3.0, tho.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Wasn't that in the FAQ, too? Could've been 3.0, tho.

Actually, it wasn't, because in 3.0 there weren't any restrictions on WWA. Accordingly, you could hit someone with a WWA shot, kill him, cleave on to the next guy, kill him with your next WWA shot, etc.

It's the "Bag of Snails" or "Bag of Rats" technique, requiring WWA and Great Cleave. WWA 1, kill a snail, Cleave the Badguy. WWA 2, kill a snail, Cleave the Badguy. Etc.

Whirlwind Attack [General]
Prerequisites: Int 13+, Expertise, Dex 13+, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4 or higher, Spring Attack.
Benefit: When the character performs the full attack action, he or she can give up all regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at the full base attack bonus against each opponent within 5 feet.

 

[Thanee]

I was more speaking of TWF/secondary attacks.

Cleave is something entirely different.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I was more speaking of TWF/secondary attacks.

No, it didn't prohibit those, either.

Strictly speaking, your "normal attacks" in a full-attack action are those gained from a higher-than-normal BAB. They don't include bonus or extra attacks from TWF, secondary natural weapons, Cleave, swords of swiftness, Haste, etc.

That's why the feat was reworded in 3.5.

 

[Sil]

I think I understand now. You were using another FEAT and arguing the other side, to show it cannot be done.

If the restrictions on WWA run out before my full attack action does (which is what the other side is arguing), then there is no longer anything preventing me from using them.

Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

If you must give up your regular attacks, what are they arguing can be left over?

How come you are using WHIRLWIND to argue about flurry?