Can a Mount be Surprised When the Rider is Not?

[underfoot]

The rules state that your mount acts on your initiative. It also states that only non-combat trained mounts are freightened by combat and require a ride check to control. Yes, your mount may take the spot check for the surprise round but it generally doesn't matter unless you have a non-combat trained mount.

Example 1a: A combat trained mount makes the spot check but the rider fails. The warhorse will not be freightened (unless invoked by a fear effect) and will wait for direction from his rider.

Example 1b: A combat trained mount fails the spot check but the rider makes it. The mount is surprised but still responds and acts on his riders initative (RAW).

Example 2a: A non-combat trained mount makes the spot check but the rider fails. If whatever the mount saw would cause it to be freightened, then the rider makes a ride check to control the mount on the riders initative (RAW). If the rider's check fails, then the horse acts like a freightened beast, fleeing from the source or fighting if cornered.

Example 2b: A non-combat trained mount fails the spot check but the rider makes it. The mount is surprised but still responds and acts on his riders initative (RAW). If the rider engages in combat then he must control the mount accordingly.

Note: The above examples assume the mount is of normal animal intelligence or not able to communicate with its rider. In the case of a mount capable of speach, telepathy, etc. It may react differently if it makes a spot check and his rider did not.

Conclusion: 1. Having a combat trained mount gives you a more reliable, easier to control and harder to freighten mount. 2. The RAW states that you use your initative for your mount and it acts on your turn. If your mount is surprised or not it uses your initative. 3. Is it worth your time to roll spot checks for combat trained mounts? No. Is it worth your time to roll spot checks for non-combat trained mounts? Yes.

Horses in Combat
Heavy warhorses, light warhorses and warponies can serve readily as combat steeds. Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses, however, are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a horse. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full round action and you can’t do anything else until your next turn.

Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes six weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat riding by spending three weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal’s previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.

Frightened
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

 

[underfoot]

Another thing to note if you choose to have the mounts roll spot checks. If the mount is not surprised and the rider's initative is higher than the attackers, then the mount is not flat-footed and can act on AoO. This could be a big deal if your mount is say, an intelligent dragon who might not wait for his rider's command to attack.

Generally though, if it's your average trained warhorse. Spot and Listen checks would be a waste of time.

 

[Atavar]

Example 1b: A combat trained mount fails the spot check but the rider makes it. The mount is surprised but still responds and acts on his riders initative (RAW).

I find it interesting that two people read RAW so differently. The mount is surprised, yet it can act? By definition, being surprised means you cannot act. It looks like I am interpreting the RAW of "the mount acts on the rider's initiative" as a statement of the timing of the mount's actions, NOT on its ability to perform those actions. I see the RAW as eliminating the complication of allowing the rider and his mount to act on different initiative counts. I never questioned when the mount acts. I am questioning the mount's ability to act when surprised.

Example 2a: A non-combat trained mount makes the spot check but the rider fails. If whatever the mount saw would cause it to be freightened, then the rider makes a ride check to control the mount on the riders initative (RAW). If the rider's check fails, then the horse acts like a freightened beast, fleeing from the source or fighting if cornered.

How can the rider make a ride check to control the mount if the rider is surprised and thus cannot take any actions?

Example 2b: A non-combat trained mount fails the spot check but the rider makes it. The mount is surprised but still responds and acts on his riders initative (RAW). If the rider engages in combat then he must control the mount accordingly.

Again, I disagree with your interpretation of RAW on the point of whether or not the mount can take actions while it is surprised.

2. The RAW states that you use your initative for your mount and it acts on your turn. If your mount is surprised or not it uses your initative.

Yes, it uses your initiative count to determine the timing of its actions, but I still contend that it can only act when capable of doing so, and by definition surprised creatures cannot take actions.

Thanks,

Atavar

 

[underfoot]

By definition, being surprised means you cannot act. It looks like I am interpreting the RAW of "the mount acts on the rider's initiative" as a statement of the timing of the mount's actions, NOT on its ability to perform those actions. I see the RAW as eliminating the complication of allowing the rider and his mount to act on different initiative counts. I never questioned when the mount acts. I am questioning the mount's ability to act when surprised.

The mount would not be taking an action -- the rider would be. Suprised is not being stunned, helpless or unable to move in any fashion. If the mount was a dragon and was suprised, then the dragon would not be able to take a standard action. Yet if the rider of the dragon was not suprised he could use his standard action to move or direct the dragon to attack and the dragon would or move or attack.

How can the rider make a ride check to control the mount if the rider is surprised and thus cannot take any actions?

You're right on that one. I should of said the mount is freightened until the riders initative, at which point the rider can attempt to control it.

Yes, it uses your initiative count to determine the timing of its actions, but I still contend that it can only act when capable of doing so, and by definition surprised creatures cannot take actions.

I agree, a suprised mount can not take an action, but the rider can spend his action to direct the mount.

 

[Doug Sundseth]

How can the rider make a ride check to control the mount if the rider is surprised and thus cannot take any actions?

The same way a sailor can make a balance check to not fall down aboard a boat in rough seas when he is surprised. Controlling a mount is not a reasoned response to stimulus, it is a trained reaction to stimulus.

Causing a mount to act (rather than causing a mount to not react), is a very different thing. It requires thought by the rider, and thus would not be available in the surprise round if the rider is surprised.

 

[Shadeydm]

I notice folks putting a lot of stock in war trained mounts. What is your position on a Wraith's (Su) Unnatural Aura, would you say that a war trained mount would be unaffected?

 

[Atavar]

Controlling a mount is not a reasoned response to stimulus, it is a trained reaction to stimulus.

The implication being that a rider should be able to control his mount during the surprise round even if the rider is surprised? I agree that makes some amount of sense in the real world (e.g. instant, muscle-memory response with no thought v. considered and deliberate actions). However, controlling an untrained mount in combat is very specifically a move action per the RAW, and thus that use of it is not available to a surprised rider during the surprise round:

Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for warhorses or warponies.

Thanks,

Atavar

 

[IanB]

The implication being that a rider should be able to control his mount during the surprise round even if the rider is surprised? I agree that makes some amount of sense in the real world (e.g. instant, muscle-memory response with no thought v. considered and deliberate actions). However, controlling an untrained mount in combat is very specifically a move action per the RAW, and thus that use of it is not available to a surprised rider during the surprise round:



Thanks,

Atavar

If the rider is surprised, the horse never takes an action. The horse doesn't go if the rider doesn't have a turn; thus the rider will never have any reason to control the horse when surprised.

 

[mvincent]

Bad DM, no donut. The horse acts when the riders tells it to.

Agreed. I might rule that the horse does not threaten during the surprise round, but horses still go where their rider tells them even if they are surprised.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I notice folks putting a lot of stock in war trained mounts. What is your position on a Wraith's (Su) Unnatural Aura, would you say that a war trained mount would be unaffected?

I do not remember the details of that ability off the top of my head.

I would not preclude the possibility of a trained warhorse doing something undesired due to Compulsion or similar magic during the Surprise round while the Rider sits clueless. But that is practically a corner case when compared to the general question of whether the mount can be Surprised when the Rider is not.

The Ride skill and the rules for mounted combat imply that a wartrained mount is coordinated with the Rider by a trivial application of the Ride skill. That is apparent. Exceptions need justification, not the vanilla example.