Can a Mount be Surprised When the Rider is Not?

[Ridley's Cohort]

Unnatural Aura (Su)
Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.

I do not see any special problem here. Wartrained horses are still type Animal. Even Animal Companions are still type Animal (although Special Mounts are not).

The argument stressing the special nature of warhorses is to counter the idea that one can assume horses are generally uncontrollable without detailed justification. That kind of assumption is baseless both under the RAW and within historical reality.

 

[Doug Sundseth]

The implication being that a rider should be able to control his mount during the surprise round even if the rider is surprised? I agree that makes some amount of sense in the real world (e.g. instant, muscle-memory response with no thought v. considered and deliberate actions). However, controlling an untrained mount in combat is very specifically a move action per the RAW, and thus that use of it is not available to a surprised rider during the surprise round.

"Control Mount in Battle" is a usage intended only for situations in which you wish to take a standard action while riding a mount not trained for war. Note that failure only results in "...you can do nothing else in that round."

Not on point for this situation.

 

[gnfnrf]

If the mount needs to make a spot check and fails, why (DnD round structure aside) would it stand still during the surprise round? Logically speaking, it's been plodding forward for an hour, and now, as far as it can tell, NOTHING HAS HAPPENED (it failed the check, after all), but suddenly it stops?

Come to think of it, this applies to people too.

Anyway, put me on the mount is not surprised. The mount may be unaware of the combatant and therefore denied Dex and unable to take AoOs, but it can be directed as normal.

--
gnfnrf

 

[pressedcat]

A lot of people seem to be arguing that rolling spot/listen for low intelligence war-trained mounts is not necessary as it makes no real difference, since an aware rider can make the mount move in the surprise round anyway.

Would these people rule that;

1) The mount is no longer flat-footed as soon as the rider makes it move (and can not be sneak attacked for being unaware and flat-footed, may make attacks of opportunity, or even attack), and so can act as though it had actually passed the required checks.

2) May move as the rider commands, but is otherwise treated as flat-footed towards the ambusher.

3) Something else entirely.

I think this is an important point, as to me it seems a reasonable option for an ambushing rogue to take down a mounted knights horse in the surprise round, and option 1) seems to make this a whole lot more difficult without any real justification.

 

[underfoot]

Would these people rule that;
1) The mount is no longer flat-footed as soon as the rider makes it move (and can not be sneak attacked for being unaware and flat-footed, may make attacks of opportunity, or even attack), and so can act as though it had actually passed the required checks.
2) May move as the rider commands, but is otherwise treated as flat-footed towards the ambusher.
3) Something else entirely.

I think it comes down to the DM and how much micro managing they want to do. I, for one, would rather not keep track of a party of 6 players with mounts going up against say a party of 12 worg-mounted goblins. In order to not bog down the combat, my table rule is that your mount is as much a part of the rider as say, his sword or shield (which exceptions of course). If you're suprised, you're mount is surprised. If you are not suprised, you're mount is not suprised. That is the fair, simple and quick way to go.

If, on the other hand, you want to micro manage to that level then Option #2 would fit the rules. The mount would be flat-footed and unaware of the attack during the surprise round but will still react to commands from his rider.

 

[pressedcat]

I agree that its up to the dm how much complexity he wants to deal with, but the op had a situation where only one person was mounted, and the player was arguing that he shouldn't need to roll spot/listen for his tiger mount, and that if his rider had passed the check, the rider and mount should be allowed to act as normal... (ed.) in the surprise round.

 

[underfoot]

Sure. It also would be of importance in the case of an intelligent mount such as a dragon. If the dragon is not suprised but his rider is; the dragon would defend himself or his rider better than a combat trained horse with int 2 (or 3) who would probably not act at all (in the same situation).

I was trying to say that keeping track of combat trained mounts is mostly moot, as they won't get freightened under normal situations and won't act on their own. Keeping track of untrained, intelligient or otherwise special mounts could make a difference.

In the case of a rogue trying to sneak attack the mount; I guess I would rule that as situational, and if the rogue is a PC then ask the DM for a roll to see if the mount is unawares. Myself, I wouldn't do it for every encounter though.

 

[IanB]

Sneak attacking mounts is a bit of an odd one anyway, since it isn't like a non-surprised mount has the freedom to move around however it wants to avoid being sneak attacked. I think that is one of those times when I cover my eyes and hope it never comes up in my game.

 

[underfoot]

Sneak attacking mounts is a bit of an odd one anyway, since it isn't like a non-surprised mount has the freedom to move around however it wants to avoid being sneak attacked.

Not really. If the mount is flat-footed, or flanked, then it's subject to a sneak attack. If the rider has the Mounted Combat feat and is capable of taking actions (not suprised and had a higher init), he could make a ride check in place of the horses flat-footed ac. Weird, but in line with the rules. If the mount is not flat-footed, though, then it retains it's dex bonus regardless of what condition the rider is in.