can a Simulacrum craft for you?

[Jack Simth]

Correct. The simulacrum HAS xp because RAW states you must have xp within a given range to be an #th level whatever ... making the question whether your gm defaults to the bottom, median, or top of the range (and thus setting the available xp pool).

Of course, even if the simulacrum is NOT allowed to regain expended experience, the process could continue once the bottom of its existing xp range is reached simply by finding some means of receiving a negative level ... thereby dropping you into the next range's default point.

In the case of a level that's specifically lost, this is actually explicitly defined in RAW:

Level Loss

A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.

The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.

(emphasis added)

This actually permits some funky shenanigans, normally. If you're, say, an Evil Cleric-16 with a Commanded Wight, you can:

Have your wight hit you.
Voluntarily fail the save to prevent the negative level from becoming permanent 24 hours later.
Spend some of that 7,500 xp you just unlocked.
Cast Greater Restoration (paying the XP with your unlocked XP pool) before your 15 day time limit expires to get rid of the negative level.
This leaves you at exactly the XP needed to be 16th, again....

 

[Greenfield]

That's sick.

I love it. But the time limit isn't 15 days, it's 14 weeks.

Restoration, Greater
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 10 minutes
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it dispels all negative levels afflicting the healed creature. This effect also reverses level drains by a force or creature, restoring the creature to the highest level it had previously attained. The drained levels are restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is no more than one week per caster level.
Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature’s abilities, cures all temporary ability damage, and restores all points permanently drained from all ability scores. It also eliminates fatigue and exhaustion, and removes all forms of insanity, confusion, and similar mental effects. Greater restoration does not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death.
XP Cost: 500 XP.

So, can anyone tell me if that Xp cost is paid at the beginning of the casting, or at the end?

If it's done at the beginning then you're cool, since the cost vanishes. If it's at the end then you can't do it at all. The XP loss would cost you a level, and you aren't allowed to do that.

Or do you just explode from paradox overload? (Note: If I were the DM and you tried this trick, better make sure your Paradox insurance is paid up. )

 

[Jack Simth]

That's sick.

I love it. But the time limit isn't 15 days, it's 14 weeks.

Ah, sorry. Missed a detail. I must have been thinking of the regular version of Restoration....

So, can anyone tell me if that Xp cost is paid at the beginning of the casting, or at the end?

If you're worried about it, hold the charge for a round. It's a touch spell, so you can do that. The spell casting is then fully complete before it's applied, and you apply it to yourself.

Alternately, if you're REALLY concerned, cast it into a Ring of Spell Storing, Greater.

If it's done at the beginning then you're cool, since the cost vanishes. If it's at the end then you can't do it at all. The XP loss would cost you a level, and you aren't allowed to do that.

Or do you just explode from paradox overload? (Note: If I were the DM and you tried this trick, better make sure your Paradox insurance is paid up. )

Oh, yes - it is definitely a form of unintended rules interactions, commonly referred to as "cheese" which shouldn't be used in an actual game.

But it's funny.

 

[Ashtagon]

In the case of a level that's specifically lost, this is actually explicitly defined in RAW:
(emphasis added)

This actually permits some funky shenanigans, normally. If you're, say, an Evil Cleric-16 with a Commanded Wight, you can:

Have your wight hit you.
Voluntarily fail the save to prevent the negative level from becoming permanent 24 hours later.
Spend some of that 7,500 xp you just unlocked.
Cast Greater Restoration (paying the XP with your unlocked XP pool) before your 15 day time limit expires to get rid of the negative level.
This leaves you at exactly the XP needed to be 16th, again....

sadly, the funky shenanigans doesn't quite work.

Being hit by a wight gives you one negative level. After 24 hours, that negative level goes away, whether you pass or fail the Fortitude saving throw. That Fort save is to determine if you lose a level at that time. Level loss is not the same as a negative level.

 

[Greenfield]

Actually, that's exactly *why* the "funky shenanigans" work. The negative level becomes a permanent level loss after 24 hours, dropping your EXP to halfway between 14h and 15th level. That leaves you 7000 exp to craft with, and 14 weeks to do it in.

A simple negative level doesn't help, since it doesn't open up any exp.

Of course, you really have only 6500 exp, since the Greater Restoration uses 500, but once it's cast you get it back, plus everything you spent, and another 7000 on top of that, as you go back to being 15th level.

What keeps the funky shenanigans from working is the DM who casts "Dispel BS" on the whole scheme.

 

[the Jester]

Or the dm who rules that greater restoration takes you to the bottom of the level you're regaining. Especially under cheesy circumstances.

 

[Greenfield]

Since the circumstance presumed that you started at the bottom of 15th level (which was why you had no EXP available to craft with), that isn't exactly a punishment.

What would be insane would be if the spell (or the DM) ruled that you returned to the mid point of that level, the way you do when you lose a level.

But yeah, the whole thing has more cheese than a deep-dish pizza.

 

[Jack Simth]

sadly, the funky shenanigans doesn't quite work.

Being hit by a wight gives you one negative level. After 24 hours, that negative level goes away, whether you pass or fail the Fortitude saving throw. That Fort save is to determine if you lose a level at that time. Level loss is not the same as a negative level.

Well, what the following guy said:

Actually, that's exactly *why* the "funky shenanigans" work. The negative level becomes a permanent level loss after 24 hours, dropping your EXP to halfway between 14h and 15th level. That leaves you 7000 exp to craft with, and 14 weeks to do it in.

A simple negative level doesn't help, since it doesn't open up any exp.

Of course, you really have only 6500 exp, since the Greater Restoration uses 500, but once it's cast you get it back, plus everything you spent, and another 7000 on top of that, as you go back to being 15th level.

Well, depends on what level you do it with, but yes, essentially.

What keeps the funky shenanigans from working is the DM who casts "Dispel BS" on the whole scheme.

Yes. It's very much an unintended rules interaction, commonly referred to as "cheese". I called shenanigans on it when I was explaining how it worked in the first place. But RAW can be funny, sometimes.

Or the dm who rules that greater restoration takes you to the bottom of the level you're regaining. Especially under cheesy circumstances.

That one's not actually a problem. See, when regaining a lost level, minimum for that level is actually explicit; see the Restoration spell description: "A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level. "

Or, again, what Greenfield said.

The real way to stop it is for the DM to blink a few times, then call shenanigans on that load of cheddar, say "no, it doesn't work that way at my table", and be done with it.

 

[Ashtagon]

ok, I see how cheesy that is now.

I think I'll houserule that level restoring powers restore the experience levels back to how they were, but not the experience points. So someone trying this cheese to the max ends up at 15th level for power, but with the experience points of a character who had just entered 14th level.

 

[Jack Simth]

ok, I see how cheesy that is now.

I think I'll houserule that level restoring powers restore the experience levels back to how they were, but not the experience points. So someone trying this cheese to the max ends up at 15th level for power, but with the experience points of a character who had just entered 14th level.

That'll cause some serious pain to your players when one of them manages to lose an actual level due to level drain legitimately. For most practical purposes, making such a ruling in a vacuum is arbitrarily increasing penalties.

The existing rule is really only a problem when someone attempts to abuse it - which basically nobody does. So unless someone at your table is abusing it, it doesn't need a house rule.