Can a sword and shield fighter make a natural weapon slam attack in the same round?

[avr]

A natural attack does not need to be listed as a secondary NA to be used in addition to iterative attacks. Read the SRD section on natural attacks.

Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.
Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.
When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.
The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.
Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.
Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.
Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.
Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.
Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.
Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

I don't think the SRD says what you think it says. If there's another relevant section, could you please point it out?

 

[Dross]

I'd allow it. Here's my reasoning: Monks make unarmed attacks, and are specifically allowed to make unarmed attacks even with their hands full. When a monk makes an unarmed attack, they're using their knees, their legs, their elbows, their head, etc. Not just their hands.

But that "specifically" is specific to the monk. Which makes such a tactic unusable by non-monks since this case is the exception to the general rule.

Otherwise the same or similar phrasing needs to be in the unarmed attack section for it to be a general rule, or that passage needs to be in the unarmed attack section and the monk section would reference it.

 

[Zurai]

I don't think the SRD says what you think it says. If there's another relevant section, could you please point it out?

I'm having trouble locating the specific rule in the SRD, but the FAQ, the Rules of the Game articles, and specific Monster Manual entries bear me out.

From the FAQ:

What happens when creatures use their natural weapons as secondary attacks along with a manufactured weapon? For example, lizardfolk have two claws that also serve as hands. What happens when they wield a one-handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other? Do they lose both claw attacks in exchange for their attacks with the weapon?

Wielding a manufactured weapon doesn’t prevent a creature from using all its natural weaponry, provided that the creature is using the full attack action and the additional natural weapons are free.
The example lizardfolk can’t make a claw attack with the “hand” that holds its weapon, although it does get to attack with the weapon itself. But, if it’s using the full attack action, it can use its other claw as a natural secondary attack (–5 to attack rolls, half Strength bonus), and can also bite as a natural secondary attack. In effect, the lizardfolk is using its normal full attack routine with the manufactured weapon attack substituted for one claw attack.

When a creature has natural weaponry, do all its natural weapons become secondary attacks when it uses a manufactured weapon? If so, what happens to the damage rating for a primary natural weapon that gets demoted to secondary status?

When a creature uses both manufactured and natural weapons together with the full attack action, treat the manufactured weapon as the primary attack (using the creature’s full attack bonus) and treat all the natural weapons as secondary natural attacks (–5 attack penalty, or –2 if the creature has the Multiattack feat). The basic damage rating for a secondary natural weapon doesn’t change, but the creature gets only half its Strength
bonus to damage for the secondary attack, even if it would otherwise be a primary natural weapon. The troll entry in the Monster Manual provides a good example of this.

The relevant section of the aforementioned troll entry:

Attack:Claw +16 melee (1d6+7) or +1 battleaxe +17 melee (2d6+8/×3) or javelin +10 ranged (1d8+7)
Full Attack:2 claws +16 melee (1d6+7) and bite +11 melee (1d6+3); or +1 battleaxe +17/+12 melee (2d6+8/×3) and claw +12 melee (1d6+3) and bite +12 melee (1d6+3); or javelin +10 ranged (1d8+7)

The relevant Rules of the Game article is here. Scroll down to "Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons".

 

[Thurbane]

Seems like the armed attack + slam is in, then. Unless there is any text that specifically states that a slam can only be made with an arm not holding a weapon or shield?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm having trouble locating the specific rule in the SRD, but the FAQ, the Rules of the Game articles, and specific Monster Manual entries bear me out.

Here you go - from the SRD:
Manufactured Weapons: Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes “found items,” such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat— in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

But that "specifically" is specific to the monk. Which makes such a tactic unusable by non-monks since this case is the exception to the general rule.

Otherwise the same or similar phrasing needs to be in the unarmed attack section for it to be a general rule, or that passage needs to be in the unarmed attack section and the monk section would reference it.

You mean like in the description of Strike, Unarmed on p121, where it says "A Medium creature deals 1d3 points of damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack", or like in the description of Unarmed Attacks on p139 where it says "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon..."?

Anyone can use their legs to deliver their unarmed strikes, not just monks.

-Hyp.

 

[frankthedm]

Seems like the armed attack + slam is in, then. Unless there is any text that specifically states that a slam can only be made with an arm not holding a weapon or shield?

Considering any monster with a slam attack in the monster manual does NOT get slams as seconday attacks when armed, I'd consider it stated.

Hill Giant
Full Attack: Greatclub +16/+11 melee (2d8+10) or 2 slams +15 melee (1d4+7) or rock +8 ranged (2d6+7)

Angel, Solar
Full Attack: +5 dancing greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (3d6+18/19-20) or +2 composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +28/+23/+18/+13 ranged (2d6+7/×3 plus slaying) or slam +30 melee (2d8+13)

Minotaur
Full Attack: Greataxe +9/+4 melee (3d6+6/×3) and gore +4 melee (1d8+2)

 

[billd91]

Errr... no.

For one, natural attacks (like a slam) never cause AoOs - you are considered armed when making a natural attack.

For two, natural attacks do not cause two-weapon fighting penalties; they have their own seperate set of rules.

But we aren't really talking about a creature with a designated natural attack as far as I can tell from the OP. It looks like a character interested in getting another attack by making an elbow smash or a kick and that's really an unarmed attack and using two-weapon fighting under most circumstances.

 

[Dross]

You mean like in the description of Strike, Unarmed on p121, where it says "A Medium creature deals 1d3 points of damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack", or like in the description of Unarmed Attacks on p139 where it says "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon..."?

Anyone can use their legs to deliver their unarmed strikes, not just monks.

-Hyp.

Um yeah, that'll be the bit.

Mind you (to try and save face) that does make my 2nd paragraph technically correct.

 

[brehobit]

Here you go - from the SRD:


Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.[/i]

-Hyp.

I'd read this whole paragraph as only applying to "some creatures". I think Frank has made a sufficient case that the authors didn't intend all creatures to do this.

Mark

 

[Phlebas]

Considering any monster with a slam attack in the monster manual does NOT get slams as seconday attacks when armed, I'd consider it stated.

Hill Giant
Full Attack: Greatclub +16/+11 melee (2d8+10) or 2 slams +15 melee (1d4+7) or rock +8 ranged (2d6+7)

Angel, Solar
Full Attack: +5 dancing greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (3d6+18/19-20) or +2 composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +28/+23/+18/+13 ranged (2d6+7/×3 plus slaying) or slam +30 melee (2d8+13)

Minotaur
Full Attack: Greataxe +9/+4 melee (3d6+6/×3) and gore +4 melee (1d8+2)

Aren't all those 2 handed weapons so you wouldn't expect a secondary attack anyway?

FWIW
I think the major rules difference is where a creature has a Single slam attack statted, as opposed to multiple slam attacks (eg LH + RH). The description is that the 'single' slam attack is a combination of punch, kick + flying headbutt rather than a single blow. ie you could make the attack with something in your hand, BUT you couldn't be effectively using it at the same time.

If its a single slam then a melee attack replaces that attack

If they have multiple attacks statted (eg two claws, four tentacles etc) then the primary weapon + secondary slam makes sense.

in the case of a sword-n-boarder with two or more natural slam attacks (which are nominally claw/claw), I'd probably allow it but taking a secondary attack would negate the shield bonus unless it was a tentacle or something that would not interfere with the shield using appendage

JMHO, and i'm no rules expert