Can a Wish overcome natural immunities?

[Alzrius]

Some creatures have various immunities that are inherent to their nature. For example, mind-affecting spells simply can't affect an undead creature. My question here is if a wish spell could overcome that. If I wanted to use a charm monster effect on a lich, would a wish spell be powerful enough to have that happen (e.g. could I have a wish emulate a charm monster with the proviso that it'd work on an undead creature)?

 

[Hypersmurf]

... why not use Wish to emulate Command Undead?

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

I think the question is less about whether it would work as it is what would it cost.

"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"

I personally think that what you want is within the normal power of a wish, but it's a real judgment call.

 

[FireLance]

Like Hyp said, wish can emulate command undead, or even control undead. More generally, I would rule that if the effect you are trying to create is similar to a listed spell effect, wish can emulate it if the similar spell effect is 6th level or lower, or 5th level or lower for a prohibited school. For example, constructs, oozes and vermin are also immune to mind-affecting effects, but using command plants (Drd 4, Plant 4, Rgr 3) as a baseline, I'd also allow a wish to duplicate a similar effect for constructs, oozes and vermin (Eberron might have a specific spell to command constructs, but I don't have the book with me now).

 

[Alzrius]

... why not use Wish to emulate Command Undead?

You're not seeing the forest for the trees. The example I used was just that, an example. If you absolutely can't get over the wording, then change "lich" and "undead" to "iron golem" and "construct." In the future, please try to answer the question that was asked.

 

[Sejs]

Blowing a Wish is about as major a resource as you can expend, frankly.

If you want to drop 5,000 exp or use a wish item, yeah, I'd personally let it fly. That's a pretty hefty investment to get a one-off thing like Charm Monster or whatever to work.

The normal mechanics for the spell would still apply - trying to Charm Monster an Iron Golem would still afford the golem its normal saving throw vs the charm spell, but thanks to the wish it actually does stand a chance at working, where normally it would just fail as a point of course.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In the future, please try to answer the question that was asked.

In the future, don't be a jerk.

 

[Alzrius]

In the future, don't be a jerk.

Ordinarily I let puerile posts go, but I'll respond to this.

If my tone above sounded annoyed, I admit I was. Trying to find a way to circumvent the example while ignoring the intent behind it serves no one, and does nothing to answer the question. Maybe I could have expressed that better, but the above post displays a disappointing lack of maturity in pointing that out.

 

[Alzrius]

The normal mechanics for the spell would still apply - trying to Charm Monster an Iron Golem would still afford the golem its normal saving throw vs the charm spell, but thanks to the wish it actually does stand a chance at working, where normally it would just fail as a point of course.

Given that, would you say that a limited wish would get the same results, or would it need to be a full-fledged wish (or miracle) spell?

Likewise, if you just wanted to have the wish lower their natural immunity for a number of rounds, instead of mimicking a spell that would bypass it, how would you adjudicate that?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Maybe I could have expressed that better, but the above post displays a disappointing lack of maturity in pointing that out.

In other words, "I know you are, but so am I"?

Sure, I'll buy that.

There is a disturbing tendency on this board for posters to ask a rules-related question and then respond very rudely when the answer to that question doesn't agree with their preconceived notions of what that answer should look like.

Hypersmurf's answer to you was not only perfectly correct, it was also helpful - if you're willing to take your own advice and look beyond the specific example given.

I'll help out.

Your specific example was a lich, upon whom you wanted some form of mind-control via a charm-like effect (to which liches are normally immune).

What you were really after, however, was a more general "Can you use Wish to affect creatures with things they are normally immune to?"

Hyp's specific example was using Wish to emulate a Command Undead spell, to which liches are not generally immune.

More generally, sure, liches are immune to enchantment effects, but they are not immune to necromantic effects that work similarly to enchantment effects. So, when possible, examine extant spells to find one which has the effect you're looking and use Wish's native Emulate Spell feature to emulate that effect.

I would be shocked if, somewhere in the vast piles of 3.X spells, there isn't a Command Construct spell which allows you to temporarily "reprogram" a construct's commands.

And, even if there isn't, take Command Undead as an example. It takes a normally 1st-level Enchantment spell (Charm Person), improves it halfway to Dominate Person (you can give commands, but must succeed at a Cha check to force the creature to follow them), improves the duration (1 hr / level -> 1 day / level) and changes the school to Necromancy.

Perform the same or similar operations to arrive at a Command Construct spell (probably Transmutation, 1 round / level). At any rate, no matter what you do to it, this spell is going to be an Wiz / Sor spell of 8th-level or less, and therefore emulatable by Wish.

Happy gaming!