• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 5E Can an elf rogue be a decent archer in (Basic) D&D 5th edition?

[MENTION=18]Ruin Explorer[/MENTION]: I ... think it's fair to say that we play very different games of D&D. I possibly shouldn't have said anything more about this, because I didn't actually want to read any more enormous maths posts. I'm not going to argue with anything you've said there, because I'm sure it's close enough to accurate, numerically speaking. But honestly the numbers really don't interest me all that much. There's so much more to a character's potential than what is encompassed by the raw numbers. So as long as they're not ludicrously different, then whatever. The stated goal for 5E was to balance the classes by making them equally fun to play, and equally effective across the game as a whole. Those (to me) are a much more interesting goals than numerical equality. Sure, they are subjective to quite a degree, but so are most aspects of RPGs, ultimately. I can see both versions of the archer being viable characters, and both being able to contribute to the party equally in their own ways. But you know, I guess we'll see when the game is actually out (and quite probably still disagree, based on our priorities!).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

[MENTION=18]Ruin Explorer[/MENTION]: I ... think it's fair to say that we play very different games of D&D. I possibly shouldn't have said anything more about this, because I didn't actually want to read any more enormous maths posts. I'm not going to argue with anything you've said there, because I'm sure it's close enough to accurate, numerically speaking. But honestly the numbers really don't interest me all that much.

If you stay away from making assertions about the mechanics, there will be no need for math posts. However, if assertions about the mechanics are made, I think it is totally fair to address them. You made a very specific assertion about the mechanics, but fair enough, I won't math this (honestly, it's a lot of work!).

There's so much more to a character's potential than what is encompassed by the raw numbers. So as long as they're not ludicrously different, then whatever.

This thread is about archers, and within that fairly small sphere, the 5E Fighter is the top dog by a pretty large margin, most of the time, not only more dangerous, but also hugely more versatile at archery because he is not required to be within 30ft, even in ambushes.

Two changes could make this pretty different - remove the 30ft restriction on SA for bows (perhaps as part of Archery Master), and make there be some kind of rules for "silent kills" which mechanically advantage the Rogue (rather than relying on DM discretion - which is better for the player if the DM wants the silent kills to happen, but worse if the DM is neutral or against them).

The stated goal for 5E was to balance the classes by making them equally fun to play, and equally effective across the game as a whole. Those (to me) are a much more interesting goals than numerical equality. Sure, they are subjective to quite a degree, but so are most aspects of RPGs, ultimately. I can see both versions of the archer being viable characters, and both being able to contribute to the party equally in their own ways. But you know, I guess we'll see when the game is actually out (and quite probably still disagree, based on our priorities!).

I don't disagree, actually - as characters both are fine overall. But if you had a party with both an archer Fighter and an archer Rogue, the latter would probably feel pretty overshadowed when doing archer stuff.
 

[MENTION=18]Ruin Explorer[/MENTION]: I'm not arguing that 4E is worse for improvised actions than 3E, only that 5E already feels a lot better for them. And maybe I should have said "dozens of pages" - the powers are all detailed tactical rules. But whatever - I think we each know where the other stands now. No point to in dragging it out any longer. Bring on July!
 

I don't disagree, actually - as characters both are fine overall. But if you had a party with both an archer Fighter and an archer Rogue, the latter would probably feel pretty overshadowed when doing archer stuff.

Whatever that is, exactly. As mentioned by others, rogues have hit-and-run and defensive capabilities that fighters don't get. They will do "archer stuff" differently, for sure. But I think you'd have to do a lot of playtesting to determine if they'd really be overshadowed, as such.

(And I'm not saying that the mechanics aren't important, but only doing damage numbers doesn't tell you all there is to know about the mechanics, and certainly doesn't say much about how they will mesh in practice with the less mechanical or less combat-focused aspects of the game.)
 
Last edited:

Whatever that is, exactly. As mentioned by others, rogues have hit-and-run and defensive capabilities that fighters don't get. They will do "archer stuff" differently, for sure. But I think you'd have to do a lot of playtesting to determine if they'd really be overshadowed, as such.

I don't think you would, given Rogues are crap at longer range, can't shoot multiple targets in a single round (well, can two with a -5 and a Feat), are less accurate, and so on. Robin Hood, they ain't. Whereas a Fighter archer pretty much is.

I agree that it's not just damage - but when you're also massively ahead on range, ahead on accuracy, massively ahead on multiple shots, and so on... :)

EDIT - Here's a free counter-argument for you - it's easier for a Rogue to get Advantage than a Fighter, due to their extra hiding-only action. This could mean that for single, precise shots in complex terrain within 30ft, Rogues have the edge on improv/trick shots (which would typically be a penalized attack roll, I presume).
 
Last edited:

In regards to your preference for the out-of-combat mechanics of 4E over the 5E playtest, I honestly don't see a great deal of difference between the two. I wouldn't be surprised if we see an optional Skill Challenge system in the DMG. But generally speaking, a check is a check in either edition.
My main interest is in the principle by which DCs are set. The "objective" approach has consequences that are different from the "level-appropriate" approach.

I think you may be surprised by how much discussion and how many options there are around check resolution in the core books. Mearls has talked about optionally making use of storygame mechanics (like "fail forward", for example), and I'd expect some discussion of these kinds of options in the DMG. D&D will never be Burning Wheel (a game which I adore, by the way), but I expect that it won't be hard to bring a few rules in to strongly encourage story-making play.
It would be good to be surprised! I don't have a strong sense at the moment, except that there is continuing very strong and widespread hostility to discussions of "saying yes" and "fail forward" approaches in the 4e DMGs.

On the issue of the tiers of play indicating appropriate actions for the players to take: this is not really something I've given much thought to, because I'm not really a fan of "superhero" D&D - I prefer a grittier game, which 5E seems to suit better.
I think this is also part of how Burning Wheel is able to accommodate "objective" DCs - it is prepared to be gritty (certainly grittier than 4e).

But BW's also prepared to have a lot of auto-fail-without-artha, which means that - in combination with its very bounded accuracy and its shade rules - it can use a rather narrow band of DCs to range from trivial to superheroic difficulties. D&D's d20, however - in combination with the absence of any artha, HeroWars/Quests-style "bumps", etc - means that I think D&D has a harder time achieving the same outcome, of things being (i) accessible to low level PCs in extremis but (ii) generally impossible for low level PCs while (iii) feasible for high level PCs.

Hence I think 5e will tend perhaps to be even grittier than BW. My personal reason for preferring 4e to gritty D&D is that higher-level spell-users get to be non-gritty (via their packaged mechanical elements) while the same level non-spell-users are not able to use improv around the skill rules to achieve the same degree of non-grittiness.

How do you rule on characters trying to do something different with their powers, alter them in some small way which would seem logical that they could do given the given narrative of the power. Do you just allow it? Have them roll to alter it? Perhaps cost a surge?
It depends on context and intuitions about mechanical balance. For instance, using Thunderwave to blow a demon through an ordinary urban shutter in a small upstairs room required an Arcana check. Sometimes I exact damage or a surge as a "tax" for the power-up. Sometimes everyone at the table just thinks something is fun or make sense and so it happens (like being able to make an Acrobatics check to "Gandalf" the Aspect of Vecna).

You challenge the group based on character-levels whereas the challenges I set are also affected by in-game fiction.
My quibble with this would be that I also challenge via ingame fiction - eg the whole confrontation with Vecna is based around ingame fiction, of killing angels of Vecna and taking the Eye from them and then implanting it in the imp to combine (i) power-up with (ii) blocking the channel between the imp and its spymaster.

But if you mean "I establish the mechanical feature of the challenges by reference to character levels", then yes. For instance, the players in my game know that they can't make a task mechanically easier by waiting a few levels before undertaking it, as I will just level up the numbers in response. To make it easier they have to change the fiction.

These two things can also interact. For instance, when the PCs become paragon tier, it is easier for them to fight hobgoblins. Hence, encounters with hobgoblins mechanically are framed as encounters with hobgoblin phalanxes (Huge or Gargantuan swarms) rather than as encounters with single hobgoblins. This is a change in the fiction (they're now paragon tier) which affects the way I frame the fictional character of the challenges (you're not fighting 4 hobgoblins, you're fighting a phalanx of one hundred or more hobgoblins!). The encounter is not mechanically any easier (they face an encounter with level-relevant swarms put together to serve the right pacing and similar needs as per the DMG guidelines mediated through my own familiarity with the system and my group). But the fictional stakes and consequences of victory are very different (defeating the hobgoblin phalanxes can save a town, and hence change the PCs' relationship to the world quite differently from when, at 3rd level, they beat up half-a-dozen hobgoblins and stole their armour).

The purest example of this approach to the fiction-mechanics interface I know of is Robin Laws' HeroQuest revised. But 4e lends itself (and, in my estimation, was deliberately designed so as to lend itself) to the same sort of approach.
 
Last edited:

I definitely did not read that section as prescriptive. I thought that entire section on Tiers was to be read as "Keep in mind that when you get to these levels, you'll have feats, class features, powers, PPs, and rituals that well let you do all sorts of extremely powerful things. DMs, you should expect PCs to have the ability to do some of these things. However, if you don't have a rule that tells you that you can do it, you are still a normal human in all other aspects."
Fair enough. But how do you reconcile that with the description of epic PCs as "superheroic", and the various suggestions that they can (say) survive the life-sapping forces of Thanatos simply by making successful Endurance checks?
 

It depends on context and intuitions about mechanical balance. For instance, using Thunderwave to blow a demon through an ordinary urban shutter in a small upstairs room required an Arcana check. Sometimes I exact damage or a surge as a "tax" for the power-up. Sometimes everyone at the table just thinks something is fun or make sense and so it happens (like being able to make an Acrobatics check to "Gandalf" the Aspect of Vecna).

Ok, similar style to our group.

But if you mean "I establish the mechanical feature of the challenges by reference to character levels", then yes. For instance, the players in my game know that they can't make a task mechanically easier by waiting a few levels before undertaking it, as I will just level up the numbers in response. To make it easier they have to change the fiction.

Yes this is what I was meaning. One of my players referred to my style as "intuitive world rather than challenges based on CR rating or the designed 4e encounters". I guess your style lends more to the gaming aspect of it of D&D.

As for them interacting I agree although I'm not a fan of multiplying the opponent numbers - as that would affect the populations of humanoids in the surrounds and then in turn affect the in-game fiction/setting.
 

...equally hopefully no-one is denying that 4E is perhaps the only modern edition of D&D that really handled high-level adventuring well ...

My first-hand experience of epic play in 4E doesn't corroborate this. So not everyone agrees. My mod of 3.5 worked better, as does my homebrew. This is play experience, not theory-craft.

Which is just as off-topic as your insistent attempt to make it somehow manifestly true 4E is a good game. If you feel it is, more power to you. Many of disagree, and that should be ok. There really is no need to push things like "equally hopefully no-one is denying that 4E is perhaps the only modern edition of D&D that really handled high-level adventuring well", a pure appeal to public opinion. As you think it is good, isn't that enough?

This is DnD, not fundamentalist religion. Let it be.
 

Fair enough. But how do you reconcile that with the description of epic PCs as "superheroic", and the various suggestions that they can (say) survive the life-sapping forces of Thanatos simply by making successful Endurance checks?
Frankly, because the life-sapping powers of Thanatos might be defined as "Make an Endurance check to avoid damage, DC 25", in which case most Epic PCs will be able to make the check but most lower level people will die.

Don't get me wrong, I think skill checks that have higher DCs should be able to do more amazing things. So, I definitely don't believe that Paragon and Epic PCs can't do some amazing things. I just think "Amazing" should still be classified as POSSIBLE for normal humans if they were skilled, tough, smart, and strong enough.

For instance, I'd allow an Arcana check of really high to temporarily turn off wards placed by Asmodeus. Or an Endurance check high enough to let you swim for 24 hours straight.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top