D&D 5E Can an elf rogue be a decent archer in (Basic) D&D 5th edition?

[Ruin Explorer]

So many things I want to say but can't, darn you NDA. >_> <_<

Not long now! I'm sure we can wait, but it is fun to do the math on what we have! 46 days until July 15th Starter Set (and Basic Set CharGen, which will clarify most of this, though not all - particularly as I imagine their Rogue will be a Thief, not an Assassin).

 

[Uller]

I think looking at averages misses the point. MM said early on that not all rogues will be sneaky death machines. It seems to me the burglar fills the niche it's looking to fill quite well. It's good for sneaking about and in combat it makes a good auxillury fighter with good damage output and mobility to avoid damage. The assassin on the otherhand is an example of what a striker type rogue might look like. While it still doesnt match the fighter round for round it's assassinate ability is very nice. Dual wield attack with advantage...that's four rolls only one of which has to hit to get max damage on SA damage. To match that a fighter would have to score multiple crits. My group is 5th level with an assassin and a barbarian. In the heat of battle the barbarian does most of the heavy work. The assassin finishes off weakened foes. But when they can initiate a fight on their own terms it is not the barbarian they count on to get the first really good lick in. The assassin does her job quite well and her player is rarely bored. That's what balance is.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think looking at averages misses the point. MM said early on that not all rogues will be sneaky death machines. It seems to me the burglar fills the niche it's looking to fill quite well. It's good for sneaking about and in combat it makes a good auxillury fighter with good damage output and mobility to avoid damage. The assassin on the otherhand is an example of what a striker type rogue might look like. While it still doesnt match the fighter round for round it's assassinate ability is very nice. Dual wield attack with advantage...that's four rolls only one of which has to hit to get max damage on SA damage. To match that a fighter would have to score multiple crits. My group is 5th level with an assassin and a barbarian. In the heat of battle the barbarian does most of the heavy work. The assassin finishes off weakened foes. But when they can initiate a fight on their own terms it is not the barbarian they count on to get the first really good lick in. The assassin does her job quite well and her player is rarely bored. That's what balance is.

If not the averages, what should we be looking at?

Re: the bolded bit, at what levels would you assert that is true? I don't have time to run the math right now, but after level 5, I don't think multiple crits are required. Indeed I'm not sure crits are required at all. I will look into it, though, if Dasuul doesn't beat me to it!

 

[Dausuul]

If not the averages, what should we be looking at?

Re: the bolded bit, at what levels would you assert that is true? I don't have time to run the math right now, but after level 5, I don't think multiple crits are required. Indeed I'm not sure crits are required at all. I will look into it, though, if Dasuul doesn't beat me to it!

Since I already have this convenient spreadsheet, it was pretty simple to add an "Assassinate" column. You can follow the link if you want to see the details, but what it comes out to is that you are correct: Assassinate is massively better than Action Surge for levels 1-4. Starting at level 5, Action Surge takes the lead, and it stays slightly-to-moderately better for the rest of the game. This is true for both archers and melee.

The moral of the story is that extra attacks are huge. It is very, very, very hard to make a single attack better than multiple attacks. (The dual wielding rogue is technically making two attacks, but you only get to add Sneak Attack damage once.)

Of course, we are getting way into the technical weeds here with an outdated playtest, which is a little silly. I'm willing to bet there have been any number of changes that completely invalidate whatever conclusions we might draw. But for those of us not named Cybit, these are the best numbers available to us.

 

[Ruzak]

So many things I want to say but can't, darn you NDA. >_> <_<

And thanks to Cybit for repeatedly teasing us.
<redacted>!

 

[Cybit]

Since I already have this convenient spreadsheet, it was pretty simple to add an "Assassinate" column. You can follow the link if you want to see the details, but what it comes out to is that you are correct: Assassinate is massively better than Action Surge for levels 1-4. Starting at level 5, Action Surge takes the lead, and it stays slightly-to-moderately better for the rest of the game. This is true for both archers and melee.

The moral of the story is that extra attacks are huge. It is very, very, very hard to make a single attack better than multiple attacks. (The dual wielding rogue is technically making two attacks, but you only get to add Sneak Attack damage once.)

Of course, we are getting way into the technical weeds here with an outdated playtest, which is a little silly. I'm willing to bet there have been any number of changes that completely invalidate whatever conclusions we might draw. But for those of us not named Cybit, these are the best numbers available to us.

There are surprisingly a lot of people on these boards who are also testers.

While I imagine the numbers are different depending on what version of the playtest people are playing with (If other RPGs are any indication, there are usually multiple levels even within closed playtests); I do think the overall flavor / 10000 ft view won't change too terribly much. So the idea that the fighter is the unquestioned king of weapon damage might be valid, but to what degree, I personally don't know (just haven't ran the numbers).

The interesting question is; can you balance classes across all pillars, or does that end up breaking in real games, and thus you need to balance all classes across combat.

I actually totally know what I want to do during lunch today now.

Also, I'm really curious as to how the final playtest material will end up comparing to what gets published. I sort of wish there was a major convention going on that talked about NEXT, so I could just report what was said by Mearls and co (this is what I did at PAX Prime 2 years ago) and break news that way.

 

[Blackwarder]

So many things I want to say but can't, darn you NDA. >_> <_<

Quick! Someone grab Cybit and tie him to a chair! and bring me duck tape, oil and a pair of horny ogres.

*looks menacingly at Cybit*

TELL US EVERYTHING YOU KNOW!!!


Warder

 

[Sword of Spirit]

One other thing: It's not clear from the rules whether you max out sneak attack dice on a normal (non-Assassinate) crit. A naive reading of the rules suggests that you do. However, Assassinate goes out of its way to say the dice are maxed, which would suggest they normally aren't. I assumed that sneak attack crits do not max sneak attack dice. It doesn't make a big difference either way, though, since rogues don't get the fighter's expanded crit range.

According to this, you max all dice involved in the attack on any crit. I personally interpret the phrasing on assassinate in the playtest as indicating that they either hadn't decided/thought about that yet when they sent out the playtest, or that they changed their minds between the time the playtest came out and the time they commented on it.

It's worth noting that critical hits will work differently in the final game. According to the livestreams you just roll the dice again (without modifiers) and add them.

 

[Cybit]

According to this, you max all dice involved in the attack on any crit. I personally interpret the phrasing on assassinate in the playtest as indicating that they either hadn't decided/thought about that yet when they sent out the playtest, or that they changed their minds between the time the playtest came out and the time they commented on it.

It's worth noting that critical hits will work differently in the final game. According to the livestreams you just roll the dice again (without modifiers) and add them.

Indeed, crits are far weaker per the livestream rules than they were in the open playtest. I hope they give multiple options for crits, personally. (Livestream rules, doubling of everything, or max on dice).

 

[Savage Wombat]

So many things I want to say but can't, darn you NDA. >_> <_<

Tell us a spread of things you are allowed to say, and we'll infer the missing information from your omissions.