Can bows be Keen?

[FrankTrollman]

As previously stated - the table is not exclusive. Whether or not specific items are unbalanced (such as spellstoring arrows), is a seperate discussion.

The table doesn't include all of the items and combinations that sample NPC characters actually have, and the rules at no time link item creation to the random treasure tables. Making up rules in order to keep people from making powerful objects is foolhardy - and claiming that it is somehow imbedded in the rules as written is insulting.

There are lots of items that can be built which are not on the random treasure tables. For example all of the "two abilities" items (which are created by simply taking two different items and paying the extra cost multiplier) - none of which are on the treasure charts. You can make a cloak of elvenkind and resistance - the costs are really quite affordable. There is no "resistant elven cloak" in the treasure chart. That does not mean that you can't make one.

Etc.

You may have issue with Spellstoring Arrows. I don't care. The question was asked "Can bows be keen?" - that answer is yes. The answer may also be "Allowing keen bows is a slippery slope which allows for potentially ungamebalanced special ammunition" - but the answer from the actual rules is still yes.

Stop trying to confuse the issue.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

There are lots of items that can be built which are not on the random treasure tables. For example all of the "two abilities" items (which are created by simply taking two different items and paying the extra cost multiplier) - none of which are on the treasure charts. You can make a cloak of elvenkind and resistance - the costs are really quite affordable. There is no "resistant elven cloak" in the treasure chart. That does not mean that you can't make one.

Yup. But pre-A&EG (which opened up Armor special abilities to Wondrous Items), you couldn't make a Cloak of Heavy Fortification. It was an Armor ability, not a Wondrous Item ability.

Likewise, Keen and Dancing can be added to any melee weapon you care to name (or any non-bludgeoning weapon, in Keen's case), but not to a Cloak or a Wand. And, I continue to contend, not to a non-melee weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Where does it say only melee weapons?

And if it was implied that it could not be applied to ranged weapons - why would they bother having an explicit restiction on the throwing ability?

You don't actually have any evidence on your side. The rules say that it is a weapon quality that can be attached to weapons. Bows are weapons. End of discussion.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

And if it was implied that it could not be applied to ranged weapons - why would they bother having an explicit restiction on the throwing ability?

You mean like why did they bother saying that using the Spell Completion activation method is a standard action, when there's a general rule that the casting time of a spell is the activation time of the power from an item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise?

There's plenty of redundancy in the core rules.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

End of discussion.

Oh, good. So shut up.

 

[Thanee]

Even the item creation rules specifically speak of the melee and ranged weapon property tables.

Sure you can do things beyond the ones listed at the DM's discretion, but the listed options do provide a framework of what can be done and what cannot.

The paragraph about projectile weapons and ammunition lists enhancement bonus and alignment to be carried over to the ammunition (nothing else, some specific enchantments do list this as well, keen does not).

The only logical conclusion can be, that keen is not meant to be used with projectile weapons.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hypersmurf]

The paragraph about projectile weapons and ammunition lists enhancement bonus and alignment to be carried over to the ammunition (nothing else, some specific enchantments do list this as well, keen does not).

Well, if you do somehow end up with a Keen bow, it doesn't need to "carry over" anything to the arrows.

Bows have a threat range, arrows do not; Keen affects the threat range. So it's actually more relevant to have a Keen bow than Keen arrows.

Not that this should been taken as support for the idea of adding the Keen property to projectile weapons

-Hyp.

 

[Thanee]

There's surely a reason, that Keen Edge can be cast on projectiles. It almost seems to imply, that this is the way to improve the threat range of a projectile weapon.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DreamChaser]

Why would the same abilities appear on both tables if the tables weren't intended to be exclusive? What I mean is, flaming appears on both tables but throwing and keen do not. If they intended the abilities to be applicable to any weapon why didn't they make just one table? Or call the table "Common Melee Weapon Enhancements" and "Common Ranged Weapon Enhancements"?

Why would throwing make a specific mention of "throwing" weapons? To make it clear that missile weapons couldn't benefit. Both, are, after all ranged weapons and use the same table.

DC

 

[Tellerve]

Well, not that we're collecting votes so nobody will be swayed or care but I'm going to side for Bow being able to have the Keen enhancement on them.

Tellerve