Can High Level Parties really die?

[thegreatbuddha]

Soul Bind. Ninth level Sorceror/Wizard spell, PHB. Traps a newly deceased soul, preventing resurrection. There's also an epic poison in the ELH that completely destroys a character's essence/body, preventing any type of return.

 

[Fenes 2]

I fail to see where there is a difference in the cheesiness of me using a quick example (plane where death is final) of my own and WotC's example in the ELH (Item that permakills). Both are, in effect, made to order for that particular "problem".

But if you want other examples:
Soul-Destroying artifact (sword or something).
Creatures that eat and devour the soul of a slain foe.
The soul is trapped by trap the soul, then sacrificed per the BoVD rules.

In short, the easiest way to permakill high-level PCs is to destroy their souls. There are enough examples around if you look a bit past the DMG

 

[JacktheRabbit]

But in the end they are still going to be back. At least some of them that is. I understand completely that timelines will progress and their being out of action will have major ramafications.



I didnt know the mirror does not function underground though, so that at least somewhat limits how soon anyone would know that they are all dead.

Nope. I really don't.

Kill someone far away from civilization and they're dead, dead, dead unless someone can recover the bodies or use a 9th lvl spell. In my game, the PCs are established as some of the most powerful people on the continent in terms of combat (not political) power. That means that the number of people who can perform miracles, wishes and true resurrections are few and far between. There is one other person in Velendo's religion who might be able to true resurrect him.

More importantly, they have made a lot of political enemies, who wouldn't want to bring them back. Sure, their King would if he could, but Velendo is the only person he knows of in the entire country of Gaunt who can cast 9th lvl divine spells. Their surviving friends would certainly try to track someone down who could recover them, but it wouldn't necessarily be fast.

Most of their other allies (such as Ioun) are more allies of convenience or circumstance than best buddies. I get the feeling that the group doesn't trust Ioun (the most powerful wizard on the planet, as far as they know) any farther than they can toss him. Their dealing with each other are very... polite.

(As for Dylrath and his magical scrying mirror, it doesn't find dead things and it doesn't work underground. No luck there.)

So sure, if all of the PCs were killed in the underdark (where they are now) and assuming that their souls weren't trapped or their bodies turned into undead or something similar, surface allies may be able to bring one of them back, who would be able to bring the rest of them back. But it would take a while, I think, and that's fun in itself. When you have a bad guy's plot that moves forward regardless of PC actions, losing a few weeks or months makes a big difference to the campaign!

 

[Piratecat]

But in the end they are still going to be back.

Unless someone deliberately takes steps to stop this (as other people have listed), sure. Is that a bad thing?

 

[Fenes 2]

<Snip>
There is one other person in Velendo's religion who might be able to true resurrect him. Someone would have to find him and tell him Velendo was dead. Not to mention, churches and shrines are subtlely waiting for the old cleric to pass away, so that they can split up his corpse into separate relic pieces for all the churches. It's tough to be considered a living saint! So that may slow things down a bit, too.

More importantly, they have made a lot of political enemies, who wouldn't want to bring them back. Sure, their King would if he could, but Velendo is the only person he knows of in the entire country of Gaunt who can cast 9th lvl divine spells. Their surviving friends would certainly try to track someone down who could recover them, but it wouldn't necessarily be fast.

Umm... did no one of the entire party think of scribing one or more True Ressurection scrolls for such an occasion? Or, if Velendo lacks that feat, use a ring of spell storing or a similar item then leave that with a trusted ally? That is what I would do, and I have neither 18 wisdom nor 18 intelligence.

 

[Piratecat]

Shhhhh! You'll give them ideas!

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Not at all. If you are fighting someone with logical access to the ability to destroy someone forever then I would expect them to use it. I just think the ability to destroy souls should be a pretty rare one. Not every major foe should have access to it.

Of course the Defenders might have been a poor choice for my example since they are fighting an entire nation of undead who probably have many among them who are quite skilled at making sure that someone stays dead when killed.

Unless someone deliberately takes steps to stop this (as other people have listed), sure. Is that a bad thing?

 

[Storm Raven]

As long as Velundo survives it is really impossible to kill anyone in the party permanently. He has all of the various raise from dead spells as well as Miracle for returning people who have zero body at all.

The granting of divine spells, as well as the nature of effects created by a Miracle spell are entirely subject to the whims of the deity who grants those powers. Which means it is in the hands of the DM to decide if returning someone from the dead would suit his (or her) ends.

 

[Storminator]

But if these foes are fighting the most powerful group of people on the planet, don't you think the foes would do a bit of research? Maybe figure out a way to devour the souls once they've been slain? Make it a priority?

Here's a question for you: If you refuse to be raised, can you accept a later raise? I don't know that the rules cover this explicitly.

PS

Not at all. If you are fighting someone with logical access to the ability to destroy someone forever then I would expect them to use it. I just think the ability to destroy souls should be a pretty rare one. Not every major foe should have access to it.

Of course the Defenders might have been a poor choice for my example since they are fighting an entire nation of undead who probably have many among them who are quite skilled at making sure that someone stays dead when killed.

 

[Al]

The best way would be to kill the PCs (using absurdly powerful monsters, dimensional anchors etc.) then trapping the souls. Open a gate to Baator (or the Nine Hells or wherever) and throw said souls through the gate. Or simply trade them to Asmodeus direct.