Can High Level Parties really die?

[jmucchiello]

I would think there would be just as many enemy NPCs with access to soul bind as there are friendly NPCs with access to true resurrection.

More cruel is to overwhelm and kill them and have them come back as vampire spawn or spectres or liches.

 

[Psion]

what daft person would want to come back?

One looking forward to eternal damnation?

 

[Squire James]

The low price and no XP loss for True Resurrection results in some strange game phenomena. The character's items are worth more than the character himself. I remember one campaign where a 17th level character was killed, the situation was bad, and nobody could get to the character to teleport him away. The 5K gold to True Res him was insignificant. The 300K gold of equipment on him was not.

So, what is the most powerful spell in the game with respect to long-term character power? Not Power Word Kill. Not Wail of the Banshee. Not Miracle. It's Mordenkainen's Disjunction! One casting on a group of level 20 people can easily cause a million gold in damage... enough to True Res someone 200 times!

 

[Wicht]

Ok.......

Now would you like to post up some examples? Juts saying it can be done without saying how is a waste of time.

1. Don't kill them - imprison them alive forever on a distant plane with no exits and no features - they are good as dead but nothing short of a wish is going to bring them back. Or - drag them alive and kicking down into the abyss where for centuries they will be tortured and corrupted into servants of evil. There are monsters that can do something equivalent, as Joshua mentioned the oubliettes work fine. Or do as another suggestion and imprison them where when freed they will be dead of old age.

2. After they are dead, have a soul devouring monster eat their souls. Even wish or true ressurection are not 100% guaranteed to work in such a case. A Barghest is a low-level example of a creature that can do this and there are similar monsters in the multiverse.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Remember, it doesn't cost 5000gp to True Resurrect somebody. It costs a 5000gp diamond. Diamonds of that size and quality are few and far between on my world. You can't just go into a city and buy one! Chances are, the diamond in question is a family heirloom or a crown jewel! They might not be willing to part with it, for any price...

 

[novyet]

In my party, a character (26th level Fighter) was killed by a combination of melee attacks from a high level opponent and a quickened wish spell. The attacks killed him, and the wish prevented him from coming back by destroying his soul. It showed us just how far our opposition will go to stop us now. It was pretty cool though.

 

[wolff96]

send the PCs to a plane with a different timeflow (say, one second here equals 100 years there). Unless the trapped character can get off themselves, they will die of old age before anybody can free them.

Death from old age cannot be undone!

Actually, death from old age can be undone as early as seventh level, and can be done by any 13+ wizard or 17+ cleric. The answer is, of course, Reincarnation.

Of course, if they're in an accelerated time plane, then chances are that the time limit on the spell expires... unless you allow True Reincarnate (from MoTW) which has the same time limitations and other restrictions as True Ressurection. If that's the case, you need a 17th level druid.

But the point is that you can acheive immortality without resorting to being undead, as long as you don't mind being a squirrel for a while...

 

[Celebrim]

It is alot easier to permenately trap a high level character than it is to kill one. In a sense, when you kill one, you are releasing them from your trap, in that they are now in the hands of appropriate extra planar powers beyond your control, and can be brought back by sufficient faith in those beings and appropriate rituals (raise dead, etc.)

There are of course things that utterly consume the soul beyond even the power of those extra planar powers to save, but such things are also pretty hard to acquire/control for your average NPC - even one of high level.

At high levels, an adventure probably needs to have the risk of both to be considered quite challenging. ToH featured a huge number of such devices at a rather low suggested level (Which is why it is remembered as being so difficult. Actually, White Plume Mountain is far worse in terms of generating TPK's.).

 

[Lord Zardoz]

High Level Death

First, I must state for the record that due to horrible luck, I have not been able to run a campaign to a point where any player has made it beyond 10th level (that being in 2nd Edition).

Second, It think that as long as the DM is willing to be very very mean about it, you can kill damn near anything.

Character durablity can get quite impressive at the higher levels, but alot of that effectiveness is often the result of buffing spells cast before an anticipated fight.

Another point is that it is very uncommon for players beyond 5th level to fight an equal number of equal level opponents. Usually, its a large number of lower HP creatures or one or two tank like creatures.

Its one thing for the players to fight off an Ancient Dragon. Its another for them to fight off a Mated pair of ancient dragons and their offspring. Its yet another for the players to be attacked by those dragons in the open as opposed to fighting them in or near their lairs.

If you need something to really put up a fight against your players, you have several options.

1) Equal char level NPC's: Create 3 or 5 20th level opponents for your 20th level party.
2) Powerful Monsters: See the Epic Level Handbook, or some of the CR 20 beasts in the Call of Cthulhu book, or the avatars of gods from Cthulhu or Dieties and Demigods. Most D&D players wont recognize a Shoggoth, or have any idea of what to do about it.
3) Very Hostile Environments: Suddenly sending a Barbarian through a gate to the plane of elemental fire will probably do him in.

As for permanant death, in a game with a wish spell, nothing short of the DM can really make a death permanant. You can decide that a hostile god has trapped the PC's souls, or do other things to the players that make the PC's impossible to ressurect / rescue.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Storminator]

I see no reason why not!

I don't see any rules reason for it, but I can imagine campaign reasons. Perhaps your god absorbs your essence once you've refused to go back. Maybe your god doesn't like the departed changing their minds all the time, etc.

PS