Can I use two shields at the same time?

[ForceUser]

Magic shields are perfectly acceptable, of course, as is using a shield to bash. Dual-wielding shields as a method of melee combat is ridiculous. I can't be the only person who thinks this!

[EDIT: Wait, you're that guy with the reputation for stirring up trouble. I guess you got me ]

 

[reapersaurus]

are you saying it's not a valid strategy within the 3E rules, or that you're applying real-world limitations to only the dual-shield-weilder PC over any other weapon-weilding PC?

 

[ForceUser]

It's most certainly valid within 3E rules. I just don't like it. DM's prerogative.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

I've created a 4th level dual-wielding spiked shield fighter as an opponent for my players. He's human and so has six feats:

Ambidexterity
Two-weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus (Large Spiked Shield)
Weapon Specialization (Large Spiked Shield)
Shield Expert (from Sword & Fist)
Dodge

(If I were building this as a character with advancement in mind, I'd take Power Attack instead of Dodge so that the next feat could be Improved Shield Bash, but that's not appropriate in this case)

Shield Expert, by the way, let's you retain the shield bonus to AC while using it to make an off-hand attack.

So, the guy gets two attacks with a full-attack action with -2 penalties to each (mitigated partly by the +1 to each for weapon focus), and the damage is 1d6+2 each (specialization). This doesn't take into account BAB, abilities, etc.

The nice thing is he gets +2 AC for large shield, and the PHB explicly says that a shield used for an off-hand attack counts as a light weapon, whether it's a large one or a small one. Small shields were tempting because they do the same damage with spikes, and while that drops the AC bonus down to +1, it allows for holding other things in the hands (though not fighting with weapons), like healing potions, for instance.

I actually have a question, though. So for purposes of off-hand penalties, a shield counts as light. For purposes of being struck in combat, a buckler is small, a small shield medium-sized, and a large shield large-sized. How about for disarming purposes? Is a large shield (spiked or not) considered medium or large? It makes sense that it's large for being struck because it's a broad target, but I'm not sure it should count as large for disarming purposes, giving the wielder that advantage. Why? Because If it were really a large weapon, how could a medium-sized creature wield it in one hand? Also, the fact that it counts as light for off-hand penalty purposes suggests to me that it would be a far stretch to call it large for disarming purposes.

What do you people think?
Thanks,

 

[Forrester]

If you don't want as many penalties. I'm pretty firmly in the camp that thinks two weapon fighting is stylish but somewhat underpowered compared to your other options (two handed weapons or sword & board).

What I'm thinking of is a human cleric who takes Power Attack and Improved Shield Bash at 1st level. I'll take Shield Charge at 3rd level. That means that if I'm buffed up with a Bull's Strength and if I shave off a couple points off my BAB and put them into damage, I can charge for around [1d6 (spiked shield) + 7 ] x 2 damage.

All of that I could do even if I just used a shield in my off hand like normal people. But I'd have to take a -4 to my shield bashes for using the off hand or else pick up the Ambidexterity feat. The other problem I started thinking of was that with -2 AC from the charge and the loss of use of my shield bonus to AC, I was looking at losing at least 4 points of AC when I executed a charge (which will hopefully be fairly often). If I use a shield in each hand, I can bash with the one in my primary hand and still retain the use of the other shield for the AC bonus.

Alternatively I was considering a similar character design but taking a level of Ranger and using a club and shield. I could use either on a standard attack or both as a full round action. Later I could cast Brambles on the club to increase its effectiveness. He would worship Elonha with the Plant (gotta love Entangle and Barkskin) and Sun domains and have Undead as his favored enemy. I like this idea as a character concept but after I stumbled onto the "double shield" idea I just had to ask the question.

Are these "character concepts" or just cheesy powergaming ideas that make little sense outside of rules manipulation?

A character that runs around using TWO SHIELDS? That's the most godawful stupid thing I've heard in quite awhile. Imagine the mocking that character would get every time he walked into town.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

Having no weapons training myself, in real life, I would vastly prefer to wield two shields than something like a dire flail. Not only would I look less stupid, but I'd be less likely to kill myself. If I were an adventurer trained in using two shields, I would take advantage of the mockery and bash/spike baddies to death as they laughed. That and I would parachute into battle dressed in drag with fabulous makeup. Nothing like getting your opponents to underestimate you. That and the element of surprise!

 

[Stalker0]

Are these "character concepts" or just cheesy powergaming ideas that make little sense outside of rules manipulation?

A character that runs around using TWO SHIELDS? That's the most godawful stupid thing I've heard in quite awhile. Imagine the mocking that character would get every time he walked into town.

damn, guys give the man a break. At least he's trying to be original, and not simply min/maxing the ultimate character. Your right, most fighters would mock him, but when they see what he can do, maybe they'll feel differently. And this is the rules forum, there's nothing in the rules that says he can't pull it off, and until it does, let's just make the concept the best we can.

As a suggestion, shield expert is definately a good idea. Also, divine shield would be a very cool feat for your character, but I would rule that one use of divine shield would only effect one shield at a time, similar to casting GMW on multiple weapons.

 

[Rel]

I'm back from vacation and I would like to thank all of you for your replies. Even the ones that think the idea is silly or "powergaming".

I don't feel particularly defensive about those accusations but I'll answer the charges anyway.

As I mentioned before, I'm not really looking to make this guy into some kind of munchkin fantasy. There are a lot of much better ways to make a character who deals tons of damage while retaining a great AC and most of them are less ostentatious than my Double Shield guy. The fact that I'll do double damage on a charge is a little bit juicy, but it is still going to result in less average damage than a greatsword wielding fighter would do and he doesn't have to charge to do it.

As to the charge of it being silly or hard to visualize, first I believe it depends on the tenor of the campaign. I got plenty of chance to chat about it with my future GM over the weekend and while he agreed that it was unorthodox, he didn't think it was too silly or would detract from the game. So I'm in the clear there regardless.

But then I sat down last night to watch a new DVD I got. You might have heard of it: Lord of the Rings. Did anybody else notice those nasty looking shields the Uruk-Hai were using? None of the orc were using two at a time but I could picture it without a problem. So now I feel even less guilt about the idea than before (which is to say, less than very little).

I still haven't settled on my final character design, but I'm leaning toward Ranger/Cleric with one Large and one Small shield, both with spikes. With that combo, the character will be very versitile.

That brings me to my latest question: If you are wearing a Small shield on your arm, can you use that arm to perform the Somatic components of your spells? The PHB seems to imply that that hand is considered "free" for such purposes, but I figured I'd get a second opinion. Plus, this gives everyone the chance to call me a power gamer some more.

 

[Stalker0]

That brings me to my latest question: If you are wearing a Small shield on your arm, can you use that arm to perform the Somatic components of your spells? The PHB seems to imply that that hand is considered "free" for such purposes, but I figured I'd get a second opinion. Plus, this gives everyone the chance to call me a power gamer some more.

As far I can recall, only a buckler grants protection and let's you use the hand.

 

[BMF]

It's silly and defies plausibility as a method of martial training.

In fact, it's not.

The idea of a shield being a large, round (or square or whatever-shaped) object that you strap to your forearm and use to impose between yourself and your enemy (taking cover) is only one interpretation of a "shield."

Many African, Polynesian and Eskimo tribes used narrow shields, held in their fists. They used them, not to hide behind as europoeans did, but instead to deflect (parry) the blows of their opponents. And many of them did go into battle with a "shield" in each hand.

Furthermore, in 1e oriental adventures, there were armor pieces called "kotes" which were "armored sleeves" that were used to deflect and block an opponent's blows (these probably come from rl history, but I don't know). These were essentially shields also.

So it doesn't defy plausibility. And personally, I think it's a good idea.