Can Mirror Images Flank?

[Jack Haggerty]

The purpose of the spell is to create several illusory duplicates of the character, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack.

You accomplish the same thing with any of the other spells I mentioned.

Can you tell me what page you are getting that from? I'm fairly certain that you cannot generally attack every creature in a square with one attack. There is all kinds of room for the images to move around. Granted, they may have to move through each other every so often as they shift about but luckily the spell supports that action.

I'm using common sense.

Go get get five or six of your friends. Mark off a 5'x5' square on the sidewalk. See how many of them you can easily fit in that square. Now, try to hit one of them with with a baseball bat.

Ok, now you've smacked your friend with that bat, imagine he was insubstantial... Would it not be safe to assumt that your bat would go straight through him, and hit the next fellow?

Are you going to give any of those images cover for occupying the same space as the caster?

Run some play tests with images in their own squares and you will see all of the problems that crop up. Flanking is really one of the minor ones.

I have, and I didn't see any problems... Assuming the DM makes it clear that the images cannot flank.

 

[0-hr]

I have, and I didn't see any problems... Assuming the DM makes it clear that the images cannot flank.

When I've run the mirror images as having their own squares, we ran into some problems (other than flanking). An evil necromancer had cast mirror image. The heroic fighter could 5ft step to one of them, but not the rest.

So the fighter takes his 5ft step next to the one he can reach and rolls to hit. He does, and the DM rolls and that turns out to be the real necromancer. But the necromancy had moved and cast mirror image on his last turn, and he did it 20 feet away from that image the fighter just hit. How did the real necro get over there?

What if the fighter strikes at the necromancer and manges to connect with the real one. Then the rogue attacks an image 20 ft away. Do you roll to see if that is the real necromancer too? Or once someone hits the real one, does everyone else automatically know which one is real?

On the necromacer's turn, he can shift the images around, but what if he prepares and drinks a potion that turn too? Then he can only move 5ft, so you know he has to be one of the images within 5ft of the one the fighter hit last turn.

What if you have three images strung out in a line and the image in the middle gets destroyed? Now one of the images is not within 5ft of another. Does it go away too or does it continue to exist in violation of the spell description?

How many attacks did he get against the necro? Some of the images were behind cover (or completely out of sight behind a wall). What AC is the hero aiming for now? You have to roll to see if it is real or not before he swings.

What if there is a necro and one image and one of them is behind 90% cover. The players have a better chance of attacking the one in the open and hoping for the 50% chance of it being real. Doesn't that seem kind of wonky? Wouldn't the necromancer rather be behind the cover? This sort fo thing really forces the Dm to keep track of where the "real" necromancer is (so that he can use cover, move legally, etc. etc.). But you can bet the players will be able to track the real one too, just through metagame knowlege about 5ft steps and so on. That puts them into the position of having to "play dumb" in a life-n-death situation just because of your rules interpretation. Not good.

How to you even place the images, or control where they move? The spell description does not allow consious control of the images. They "mirror" the caster, "mimic the character's actions", "stay near the character", and "separate from the character and remain in a cluster". They do not obey mental commands or independently react to the evnironment.

Keep all of the images in a cluster (like the spell says) around the caster and you will avoid these problems. At the very least, keep them (and the caster) all within a set of 3x3 squares.

I've played it both ways and there's no way I'd go back to putting images in their own squares. After this much discussion, I'm convinced that others are equally inflexible so I'm more or less done. I just hope that others reading this thread will consider both options and make the right decision.

 

[Uller]

I haven't read the entire thread...but has anyone pointed out that in general spells don't do anything beyond what their description says they do? Mirror Image doesn't flank simply because the spell description doesn't say that it does. The rules for illusions don't say anything about allowing illusions to flank, so in general, they do not. Specific illusions like Major Image might flank if the audience believes it is a real threat, but nothing about mirror image infers that the viewer would believe that every image from MI is somehow a real threat. The images are not your run of the mill illusion. The are counstantly moving around, in and out of each other and the caster. They may not be in the same 5' square as the caster, but the caster doesn't really have any control of where they are, either.

I think also the spell assumes that the caster is "playing along" with the images. If the caster just stands there while all the other images are moving around, he'd be very easy to pick out.

Someone said there are other uses of the spell...maybe. But I wouldn't allow you the control necessary to have an image step up to a corner and "peek" around it. You could stand near the courner and inevitably one of your images will move out from the corner, sure...but anyone who sees this would see it as very strange and would probably realize it is a trick or would think you have just lost your mind...

The long and the short of it...if the designers intended to allow the images to flank or have some other offensive use, they would have said it.

If the images flank, I'm playing a Rog/Wiz next time I'm a player!!! This would be better than blink for scoring sneak attacks! Gimmee a ring of mirror image...

 

[Junkheap]

Ahhh, but Conan had to continuously attack the mirrors precisely because the threat lay all around him, in every direction at once, as what he initially perceived to be the real threat, was in fact a quasi-real reflection of the true threat. Thus, from Conan's perspective, he was threatened on all sides, which was proved by him attacking all of the mirrors. Why did he attack all the mirrors? Because the real threat was not just the quasi-real mage, but the mirrors as well, which were all around him, and he knew that the only way to harm to mage was to destroy the mirrors.

See i see that fight differently. He knew out of all those images, only 1 was real. He did not know which one it was. So just like in d&d, you take a chance an attack an image you hope he is walking through or is him. You know this for a fact because all the images are copying the main one. If someone steps out and attacks you, since there is no facing in 3e and you know for a fact there is only 1 real person, you can prety much wait for the attack with total disregard to the other images. If you know they are not real, WHY would you consider them. There is NO other threat to form a flanking situation.

If there was a chance that you could consider mirror images as being REAL, then fine, you could flank with them. But it gives NO SAVE, so you KNOW for a fact, that out of all those images, only 1 is real. So no matter if the images surround you(don't know how this would happen in the first place anyway), you are only waiting for that 1 attack.

Mirror image is a 2nd level spell. If it was possible for an image to fool you into thinking it was a threat, it would give you a save. But it doesn't. So evrey combatant KNOWs that there are multiple images but 1 threat.

Also another thing, if it ever comes to a point where images surround an opponent, all he has to do is walk through it and there goes your possible flank situation.

I should try this on my DM with a rogue. Stap a fishing pole on me, with a mirror attached to the other side. When attacking a monster, I would be on one side while the MIRROR would be on the other. WOHOO FLANK, sneak damage baby. If thats not a threat, then why is mirror image. Its the same thing.

 

[kreynolds]

See i see that fight differently.

EDIT: Don't misunderstand me here. I think the idea that Mirror Image can get you flank is proposterous. A higher level version? Sure. Why not? The standard one? Nah.

Conan's battle with the mage can be seen in many different ways, but in the end, no viewpoint helps Mirror Image get flank a damn bit.

He knew out of all those images, only 1 was real.

Exactly. Two obvious viewpoints are...

1) He knew the mage in the center of the room was the threat, and the mirror's were simply the mage's weapons, or tools, if you will. Destroying the mirrors was simply a means to an end.
2) He knew the mage in the center of the room was the threat, but the mirrors were as well. With the mirrors unbroken, he couldn't harm the mage at all, yet the mage could freelying rip him to pieces. Generally, Conan's adversaries could be dealt with one on one, but not this time. The only way that Conan could harm the mage was by destroying the mirrors, as they were an extension of the mage, thus the mage was all around him, thus the threat lay all around him. With the destruction of each mirror, that threat was minimalized.

Like I said, either way, no matter how you look at it, Mirror Image still can't flank.

 

[Junkheap]

kreynolds: Agreed End of discussion for us both? Maybe i could get your insight on one of my other threads. The hsate with undead.

 

[kreynolds]

kreynolds: Agreed End of discussion for us both?

Looks that way.

Maybe i could get your insight on one of my other threads. The hsate with undead.

I'll take a look and see what I don't have to offer.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The rules for illusions don't say anything about allowing illusions to flank, so in general, they do not.

It was in a Dragon Mag (someone should email the Sage about this again). If I remembered the article #, I would have provided it.

Basically, this dwarven PrC, intended for rogue/clerics, gave an ability to create an illusion of an earth elemental (as Major Illusion) and said you could flank with it.

Of course, Mirror Image is different. If you look at the picture in the PHB, you'll see that they overlap with each other. Also, multiple creatures can fit in the same square, provided that they aren't in combat. And since the images can overlap... they're all in the same square.

Or you can look at it another way.

I
MI

M = mage, I = image.

The DM randomly determines the locations of the images when the spell is first cast. From now on, the images stay in that position unless the mage moves, in which case, the images can switch. They can never be more than 5 feet from the mage, however.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

There's nothing wrong with being creative with a spell. Using "message" to quietly threaten a public speaker (no save, no SR) instead of communicate with cohorts isn't expected, but it's creative.

Yes, but it won't grant you something that the spell is not meant to provide: You would speak to the public speaker without being heard by the crowd, like in the spell's description. This needs no save or SR, as it's only a means of communication. He won't be scared just because you spoke through magic instead of your mouth. For that, you would still need an intimidate check.

Or using prestidigitation to give illusory tactical cues in a silenced area.

Sure. That's well within the spell's possibilities!

The idea that there is no such flexibility in the game is, of course, bull.

I don't say that there should be no such flexibility. I said that you can't do something that is well beyond the spell's power.

You could use prestidigitation to make poison taste and smell like fine mead. It's well within the spell's power, since you can flavor stuff. But if you did it and demanded that the drinker would not get his saving throw against the poison as he wouldn't fight the effects of mead, you'd get the big Munchkin Bane DM-Boot up where the sun don't shine! He would save the moment he feel his entrails want to crawl up his gullet! Because it can make it taste like mead, but as soon as it hits his stomach, it will ACT like poison.

If you use message to silently threaten someone else, it's fine. But if you insist that he must now be scared (as he gets no save and no SR), you better follow up with a fast "just kidding"! The spells delivers word, just like your mouth delivers words. You can accomplish nealy everything you can do if you speak with another (you could cheat at a game of poker if you stand behind your friend's enemy and tell your friend what cards his enemy has) but the spell won't do more (you probably couldn't convince the listener that you are his concience and that he wouldn't want to kill that guy in front of him, at least not with a bluff check with a high bonus to the other's sense motive check)

I personally hate munchkins poring over the rules to min-max in 'gotcha!' fashion, but I have no problem with a spell being used imaginatively. It makes the game interesting. And when the rules are grey, it's case-by-case.

Often you can make life a lot of easier by asking yourself two little questions: "is that what the spell is meant for" and "would that mean giving the spell an effect that is far beyond his possiblities and level".

MI is meant as a defensive spell. It's not meant for an offensive manner, so I'd answer our first question with "no"
A 2nd-level spell that allows you to flank the enemy all alone AND prevents you from being hit most of the time is way to powerful, so the answer to our second question is "no" again.

So my advice is to let the spell be just a defensive spell.

And don't bother about where those mirror images are: it's unneccesary work.

 

[Al]

Well, to simple me is seems a simple question. Just grab your PHB, turn to the glossary and apply the terms.

flank: to be directly on the other side of an enemy that is threatening the enemy a character is attacking.

(PHB, p.278)

threaten: To be able to make an attack of opportunity against an opponent within reach....

(PHB, p.280)

Well, from the sounds of the first quote, you can flank only if the creature with which you are 'flanking' threatens the opponent. And from the second, threatening means being able to engage in AoOs against that creature. Since the Mirror Image cannot make AoOs, it cannot threaten according to a technically correct reading of the rules. Since they cannot threaten, it is impossible to use them to flank. The same would apply to Minor Image, Major Image and similar figments/glamers.

That's my literal interpretation of the rules. Of course, as DM, you can house-rule that Images can flank, but it's just that: a house rule. As the core rules stand, Mirror Images cannot.