Can someone explain crippled OGC to me

[madelf]

So you, and madelf, are saying that the OGL really offers NOTHING other that the ability to cut and paste verbatim text?

That's what I'm saying. The OGL offers a means of re-using text (or other "literary or pictorial expression" - art or music could be released as open content as well). And it also offers a comfort zone for doing so, even where a person may want to change some wording around, by removing the need to worry about the wording being "different enough" (unfortunately, declaring the text PI eliminates that comfort zone).

It can't offer anything else, because other than "the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form" there's nothing else that isn't already available. Of course there's a gray area in copyright law a mile wide, where you can be sued for being "too close," but releasing mechanics as OGL without releasing the text does nothing to help that.

 

[DanMcS]

EDIT: Are you also saying that I could publish that exact file WITHOUT the OGL and there would be no chance to even get a court case going against me, much less win?

Which file, the Ars Magica rules thing Yair posted? If it doesn't contain significant text from the book, then yeah, you could publish it, they could sue you (all a lawsuit takes is lawyers and money), and they wouldn't win. It might be so expensive to defend yourself in a civil suit that you'd go broke trying, but that's a failing of the legal system, it wouldn't mean you did anything illegal.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, I am certainly not a lawyer nor do I have a law library at my disposal, but google provides an immediately serviceable substitute for the scope of this topic:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html



That seems pretty straightforward to me.

The only thing that the OGL buys you is access to "literary or pictorial expression" that is not normally accessible under copyright restrictions, as far as I can see. And, if your position/PI declaraction is being correctly represented here, that seems to be what the PI statement is denying. Meaning that you aren't really contributing any open content.

Again, As Far As I Can Tell/IANAL/etc.

This seems to be why TSR stopped trying to sue everyone who tried to publish a role-playing game on the grounds that they owned the rights to the concept of "role-playing games", and other things like "resolving actions using random die rolls."

 

[DanMcS]

It establishes a boiler plate for doing these things in a consistent manner. But those could all be done without the OGL.

They are all fine and good and in the spirit of the OPEN GAMING COMMUNITY. But they are not legal options that were not in existence before.

Yeah, but with the OGL, citation and respect of PI are required, which helps give publishers a warm fuzzy.

 

[madelf]

Which file, the Ars Magica rules thing Yair posted? If it doesn't contain significant text from the book, then yeah, you could publish it, they could sue you (all a lawsuit takes is lawyers and money), and they wouldn't win. It might be so expensive to defend yourself in a civil suit that you'd go broke trying, but that's a failing of the legal system, it wouldn't mean you did anything illegal.

I second that. He nailed it precisely.

 

[BryonD]

More importantly, it indicates that you're a willing participant in publishing game material in a way that can be easily reused and improved by others to support a game we all know and love. If you're publishing under the OGL but you aren't releasing open content, you're really missing the point.

You know, when I think of the places where people have tried to make new machanics and call them PI. Or used PI names to cover OGC, creating the dis-incentive as BardStephenFox described. I think those are pretty lame things to do.

Regardless of the legal minutia, (and I think this is a tempest in a really small teapot) to lump this practice in with those is a real shame. Wulf had a idea. A really good idea. He has put it out there and said that anyone else if free to use his idea as part of Open Gaming. That people are going to start crying (not you DanMcS or madelf) over the need to do a little typing in exchange for Wulf being protected from some scumbag mass posting his thoughts elsewhere and thus completely removing any motive for him to sahre any future ideas with us is just sad.

May I ask you, do you agree that a wiki would motivate Phil Reed, Wulf, and other to stop publishing? Would doing something that causes them to stop be supportive of the game we know and love? If the options are A)go to the effort of putting out material and then see that effort be removed of all potential for return on the investment of time or B)see material that has a buffer to protect its value be produced and see this continue into the future, then I know exactly which one of those options REALLY supports the game. If anyone is going to claim that doing it for a profit is against the spirit, then I'd encourage them to use only free product in their games. I assure you, your crap to gems ratio is going to go through the roof.

 

[madelf]

Yeah, but with the OGL, citation and respect of PI are required, which helps give publishers a warm fuzzy.

Well, to be a bit nit-picky, the OGL also prevents citation that might otherwise be allowed without it (by restricting all citation to the Section 15).

 

[BryonD]

Which file, the Ars Magica rules thing Yair posted? If it doesn't contain significant text from the book, then yeah, you could publish it, they could sue you (all a lawsuit takes is lawyers and money), and they wouldn't win. It might be so expensive to defend yourself in a civil suit that you'd go broke trying, but that's a failing of the legal system, it wouldn't mean you did anything illegal.

No, I'm talking about MY file. I know there is some stuff in AM that can be re-tooled and put out.
I re-wrote a chunk of MH just about sentence for sentence. I just re-worded the sentences.

 

[BryonD]

Yeah, but with the OGL, citation and respect of PI are required, which helps give publishers a warm fuzzy.

Warm fuzzys are nice. But they are irrelevant to the legal discussion.
The important part of the answer is "yeah".

 

[BryonD]

I second that. He nailed it precisely.

Understood. And I agree on the AM part. But, and I'm really asking here, could I basically re-write every sentence of AM and be fine?

I can re-write every sentence of MH and be fine?

Can I post my Hero write up without the OGL and be completely legally clear and free?