Can someoone explain the "Daily Hate" for me?

[Underman]

When a fighter is down to one single individual hit point meaning that he is very badly battered, does he gain one single negative condition that impedes him in any way from taking a hit? No. Can he climb every mountain, ford every stream, and walk five hundred miles then walk five hundred more at precisely the same rate he would if he was at perfect health despite having lost 99% of his hit points? As long as he doesn't fall down and break his crown...

Does that make any less sense than your issue here?

There are answers to that too, like there's been for every red herring ever posed on every Enworld thread. This is the Daily Hate thread. I'm sticking to it.

 

[Neonchameleon]

There are answers to that too, like there's been for every red herring ever posed on every Enworld thread. This is the Daily Hate thread. I'm sticking to it.

And the answers are almost exactly the same. Which is why this isn't a red herring.

This isn't the Daily Hate thread. This is the "Can someone explain the "Daily Hate"?" thread. And apparently not.

 

[Underman]

And the answers are almost exactly the same. Which is why this isn't a red herring.

There are so many red herrings on Enworld, I'm sick of them.
Bob: I don't like A
Joe: Why don't you like A????!!!!!!
Bob: Because of [so-and-so]
Joe: But why do like B???!!!!!! There's the same thing!
Bob: No, they're not equivalent
Joe: Yes, they are
Bob: No, because... [allows himself to be distracted from A]

This isn't the Daily Hate thread. This is the "Can someone explain the "Daily Hate"?" thread. And apparently not.

You're right. The last 10 pages of this thread have been completely lost on you, great, wonderful.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You're right. The last 10 pages of this thread have been completely lost on you, great, wonderful.

There are people other than you in this thread you realise? Like Firelance, Mustrum, and Tony Vargas. Apparently you're ignoring most of the last four pages...

 

[Underman]

There are people other than you in this thread you realise? Like Firelance, Mustrum, and Tony Vargas. Apparently you're ignoring most of the last four pages...

So what? If you're saying that Daily Hate was not fully explained to your satisfaction, that's one thing (and it's nobody's obligation to do so); but it was explained.

 

[Someone]

I always thought that the reason must be very closely linked to the answer of why must Buffy kick a vampire in the face for 5 minutes before stabbing him in the heart with a piece of wood. It'd make much more sense to try the stabbing maneuver from the start.

 

[FireLance]

I'm not sure it's as analagou as you imply. You weren't trying to sell a novel to Lord Mhoram ("imagine a fantasy world where..."), you were trying to sell a biography ("the Kodokan Institute details 67 ways..."). That is, I think you addressed Lord Mhoram on real-life terms, and then only retreated to fantasy mea-culpa after those real-life assumptions were challenged and rightfully so. (Nothing personal, I think that's quite common here)

Actually, in the post in question, I retreated into the fantasy world almost immediately, without being challenged.

The argument (addressing the question, "if you are too tired to do X in one way, why can you still do X in another way?") was that in the real world there are already 67 ways to throw someone. If you aren't able to do it in one way, there are 66 others which would probably use different muscles or the same muscles to different extents. So, in a fantasy world, where you aren't able to repeat a maneuver which does X because certain muscles are tired out and can no longer give you 100%, you can still do X in other ways which use different muscles or which only require the same muscles to give 80%.

 

[Underman]

Actually, in the post in question, I retreated into the fantasy world almost immediately, without being challenged.

The argument (addressing the question, "if you are too tired to do X in one way, why can you still do X in another way?") was that in the real world there are already 67 ways to throw someone. If you aren't able to do it in one way, there are 66 others which would probably use different muscles or the same muscles to different extents. So, in a fantasy world, where you aren't able to repeat a maneuver which does X because certain muscles are tired out and can no longer give you 100%, you can still do X in other ways which use different muscles or which only require the same muscles to give 80%.

I see, so it's sort of like:

In real life, writing with a pen and typing on a keyboard use probably use different muscles or the same muscles to different extents. So, in a fantasy world, writing with a pen makes my forearm so tired that I can't type on a keyboard.

In the real world, you've only referenced that different activities "probably" use different muscles to different degree. You've only established in the fantasy world that particular muscle groups are independently tired out by those respective activities.

So this part isn't actually true (for purposes of combat anyway):

Specific muscles can get injured or tired in the real world and make it impossible for real-world characters to repeat actions, either at all or at the same level of efficiency.

In real life, muscle fatigue is pretty pervasive. I looked at those examples of judo throws, and maneuvers like the hip throw for example uses a lot of different muscles. Martial arts almost always emphasizes power by using the whole body. You actually have to pull or injure a muscle to isolate inactivity of a particular muscle group. And then you can't use the muscle at all. Imagine a UFC fighter with a limp, and cannot effectively use a leg for anything (not just kicks). Furthermore, that UFC fighter's leg muscle is generally passively injured after getting "hit" in the leg, and not in the act of doing a "daily".

And yes, now I am arguing just for the sake of arguing, but all I'm saying is that I think your reasoning has retreated to the fantasy world much earlier than you think.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Pfft. I answered the question way back on Page 2!

The secret way to thread the needle is to let people who want to use dailies use them for whatever character types they want and not to make anyone use dailies who doesn't want to for whatever reason.

Totally possible. Folks just need to realize that this isn't a zero-sum scenario.

 

[FireLance]

I see, so it's sort of like:

In real life, writing with a pen and typing on a keyboard use probably use different muscles or the same muscles to different extents. So, in a fantasy world, writing with a pen makes my forearm so tired that I can't type on a keyboard.

Not exactly. First of all, writing with a pen and typing on a keyboard should still remain the same in a fantasy world (one with keyboards, anyway). The difference is that in a fantasy world, you can also do stuff that you can't do in the real world - say, non-magically carve a message onto a stone wall with your bare hands by hitting it just so once per day. Even if you have already carved a message on a stone wall, and are so tired out that you can't do it again until you've had a long rest, you are still able to write or type because they use different muscles or use the same muscles to a different extent.

So this part isn't actually true (for purposes of combat anyway):
In real life, muscle fatigue is pretty pervasive. I looked at those examples of judo throws, and maneuvers like the hip throw for example uses a lot of different muscles. Martial arts almost always emphasizes power by using the whole body. You actually have to pull or injure a muscle to isolate inactivity of a particular muscle group. And then you can't use the muscle at all. Imagine a UFC fighter with a limp, and cannot effectively use a leg for anything (not just kicks). Furthermore, that UFC fighter's leg muscle is generally passively injured after getting "hit" in the leg, and not in the act of doing a "daily".

No dailies in the real world, remember? Even in the fantasy world, you don't tire yourself out or injure yourself enough that you are no longer able to perform your at-will attacks (other people might do so by injuring you, though). You only put such strain on your muscles when you are performing a martial daily, and even though you can't hit the same peak level of performance again without a rest, you can still perform your less demanding at-will attacks.