Can spells target attended objects?

[Sithobi1]

Some targeted spells include in their targets Object. Can you use it to target an attended object? So far the consensus (in my group) seems to be that some can and some can't. For example most people agree that Shatter can blow up an opponent's sword while they're holding it, and Warp Wood can do something similar. However, Chain Lightning seems to be considered somehow different, so that it cannot destroy objects. Could someone explain to me either why this is, or why it's wrong? FWIW, the exact thing under discussion is Energy Missile.
Also, as an aside, is it possible to use a ray to damage attended items(or if you think it's not ok to damage unattended items, please make an argument)?

 

[moritheil]

Some targeted spells include in their targets Object. Can you use it to target an attended object? So far the consensus (in my group) seems to be that some can and some can't. For example most people agree that Shatter can blow up an opponent's sword while they're holding it, and Warp Wood can do something similar. However, Chain Lightning seems to be considered somehow different, so that it cannot destroy objects. Could someone explain to me either why this is, or why it's wrong? FWIW, the exact thing under discussion is Energy Missile.
Also, as an aside, is it possible to use a ray to damage attended items(or if you think it's not ok to damage unattended items, please make an argument)?

In general, the rules are against targeting attended objects. This is to protect the players from their stuff getting ruined all the time. Be aware that I'm painting with a very broad brush here. If in doubt, I would not allow it, but for specific examples, I'd have to look at the spell and the rules.

Hmm, here's shatter:

Shatter

Evocation [Sonic]

Level: Brd 2, Chaos 2, Clr 2, Destruction 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Area or Target: 5-ft.-radius spread; or one solid object or one crystalline creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (object); Will negates (object) or Fortitude half; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object) Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.

Arcane Material Component: A chip of mica.

And here's Control Sound:

Control Sound

Psychokinesis [Sonic]
Level: Psion/wilder 2
Display: Auditory; see text
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Target: One sound or mixture of related sounds
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level; see text
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 3
You shape and alter existing sounds. You can target one sound, such as a person speaking or singing, or a group of related sounds, such as the patter of many raindrops or the tramp of soldiers passing by. A sound as quiet as a snapping finger can be controlled. You can substitute any sound you have heard for the target sound. If you attempt to exactly duplicate the voice of a specific individual, or an inherently terrifying sound (such as a dragon’s roar), you must succeed on a Bluff check with a +5 circumstance bonus opposed by the intended listener’s Sense Motive check to avoid arousing suspicion.

You can entirely muffle a noise or magnify a sound to such loudness that it drowns out all other conversation in the immediate area. In this way, you can provide yourself or any with a +4 circumstance bonus on Move Silently and Listen checks.

Alternatively, you can use up the power in an instant. You do this by modulating a sound into a one-time destructive impetus that shatters nonmagical/nonpsionic, unattended objects of crystal, glass, ceramics, or porcelain (vials, bottles, flasks, jugs, mirrors, and so forth) in the area.

 

[moritheil]

Continuing in the same vein, let's examine the rules for sundering:

Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

Now, of course, Sunder is specifically a melee attack . . . IIRC there may be a Ranged Sunder feat floating around somewhere out there. If you take that feat, and you want to attack with Rays (and the feat allows it), I see no reason why not.

It's a bit wild to just let people do it right off the bat, however, as that means a lot of wands, scrolls, staffs, etc. are simply going to be targeted with scorching rays and destroyed. Hmm.

 

[Sithobi1]

You've given an answer to my secondary question, but I don't see how Control Sound is germane to this topic....Why should Shatter be allowed to do something and Chain Lightning/Energy Missile not?

 

[Sithobi1]

Just for comparison, I'll direct you to Mage Hand, where it specifically states that it is an unattended item that is targeted. Chain Lightning, Warp Wood, Shatter, Energy Missile, and others all share a different wording. Thus by omission, it should be able to affect attended objects.

 

[moritheil]

You've given an answer to my secondary question, but I don't see how Control Sound is germane to this topic....Why should Shatter be allowed to do something and Chain Lightning/Energy Missile not?

Control sound is another spell/power that can be used to break stuff.

Energy missile? I'm not familiar with that spell. If it's based on magic missile, MM specifically states that it can't be targeted at objects.

Chain lightning is a bit goofy. It allows a Ref save for half, like most area spells, so I'm inferring that this falls under the "unless you roll a 1 on a spell Ref save, your items are not damaged by it" rule.

Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure, and the spell may cause damage to exposed items (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.

What you REALLY want, however, is this:

(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level.

The language ("which receive saving throws only if . . . attended") implies that attended objects can be targeted. The spell has to be capable of targetting objects, though.

 

[Sithobi1]

But Chain Lightning is targeted, not an area. In its Target section, it states

One primary target, plus one secondary target/level (each of which must be within 30 ft. of the primary target)

And later:

Unlike lightning bolt, chain lightning strikes one object or creature initially, then arcs to other targets.

Thus, it seems it can destroy a creature's items by targetting them.

 

[Sithobi1]

Bump...Could someone please give me a definitive answer? thanks.

 

[sequoia]

Hi...

IMC I've always ruled that (barring failed reflex saves) energy spell don't work on attended objects. The other exception is when the spell uses an attack roll to hit, like a ray or the numerous attack conjurations, treating it in a similar manner to a sunder.

Just my 2 cents!

EDIT: By that comment, chain lightning wouldn't work... no attack roll. That's probably obvious, but I thought I'd type it anyway....just in case.

 

[ThirdWizard]

There is no rule stating that you can't target an attended object, and since several spells imply that they can target attended objects that make no special mention of the attended aspect, it would make sense that you can target all attended objects.

Thus, if you can cast dispel magic on a sword someone is wielding, there is nothing saying that you cannot disintegrate it.

Area spells, obviously, have their own rules.