Can we go back to smaller books?
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
I wholly reject this argument. Not only is there a lot of white space in "modern D&D" books (I assume you mean 3.x and 4E), there's also a lot more material than is necessary or even desirable. Sometimes, excessive explanations (spells come to mind) do more harm than good when it comes to adjudication, and lengthy non-rule discussions are often repetitive and/or superfluous.
In short, i reiterate: *no* edition of D&D could not be produced as a complete game in 200 pages or less, but I'd be happy for 3 128 page volumes.
Why would i do that?
Erekose
Eternal Champion
lol!
People pay $60 for games that are intended to provide them 6-8 hours entertainment, so i don't see why not.
Tabletaop gaming prices -- and the nerdrage surrounding them -- has always confounded me given the absolutely astounding cost-to-entertainment-hours ratio of RPGs and other TT games. Compared to movies or video games, RPGs are dirt cheap. I mean, those of us still playing with books we bought 1, 5, 10 or even 25 years ago can hardly complain about the cost, can we?
Celebrim
Legend
It depends very much on what you mean by complete.
No edition of D&D can be condensed to under 300 pages. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.
With earlier editions of the game, the general way of selling the game was to sell a relatively slim volume which was not a complete game. AD&D did this by selling a 'Player's Handbook'. If you only bought the 'Player's Handbok', you lacked sufficient rules to play the game. The entire combat system and all the tables necessary to play, to say nothing about necessary notes on how many of the spells worked, were in the 'Dungeon Master's Guide'. And even then, you still didn't have a truly complete game because a complete description of the monsters were in the monster manual and many systems which we would now consider necessary parts of a game system (environmental hazards, skills, etc.) where yet to be described.
Likewise, with D&D, they did sell a single slim volume (the 'basic rules book') that contained all the rules, but this was also not a complete game. Those rules only took you up to 3rd level, and contained little or no information on conducting wilderness adventures. To advance your game you had to buy another volume, and then another. When these rules were collected together in a single cyclopedia, they came in at just over 300 pages. And, while this is a remarkable achievement, I don't really consider D&D sufficiently generic or universal to ever be considered 'complete'.
I think the Pathfinder rules are appropriate in scope - far more appropriate than 3e or 4e with its endless specialized supplements. My attempt to make a complete set of house rules indicate that the total rules at the table might well exceed 1800 pages and just indicating which players options are available is daunting (which is how the project started in the first place). I think I'm far from alone in having a rules set that in practice is actually, "Everything in the PH (with some modifications), plus the Shaman's Handbook pages X-Y, plus the 'Book of the Righteous' pages X-Y (but with these changes) and the Unholy Warriors Handbook (but with these changes), plus the feat list from Sword and Fist (but not...) , plus these selections from the Netbook of Feats, plus..." and so on and so forth.
Frankly, any time you are asking for a 'Rule Light' system, I'm inclined to here unintentional irony. No one needs to provide a rules light system for you. Sit down with a rules set and trim out everything you don't want. In terms of the work involved, it's a far easier matter than including everything that you want to include. Take an srd and start cutting pages and trimming out rules if that's what's good for your table.
No 'rules light' system survives in the market place long though. Even if it is somewhat successful, the fact that after they've sold the 'complete rules' they've sold all there is to sell dooms the game system.
Movies and video games? Heck - compare them to board games! Arkham Horror will set you back $60. Something like Descent goes for $100. Even simpler games usually go for $30 minimum.
And you can go here
IPR
for all your lighter gaming needs. Plenty of games under the 200 page mark. Check out InSpectres, Dogs in the Vineyard, and Don't Rest Your Head. Neat games that take RPGs in new directions.
And you can go here
IPR
for all your lighter gaming needs. Plenty of games under the 200 page mark. Check out InSpectres, Dogs in the Vineyard, and Don't Rest Your Head. Neat games that take RPGs in new directions.
Aus_Snow
First Post
Oh bollocks. How can I resist bait like that. I wasn't going to get involved, but oh well.
Last edited:
ExploderWizard
Hero
Yarp.
Quality is more important to me than pagecount. I am happily reading through my new Dragon Age boxed set which consists of two rather slender softback books. It cost $30.00 and only covers five levels!!!
Am I upset? Nope. I am getting a very playable game that can be read quickly without 500+ pages of TMI. If I like what the box delivers then I will take a look at future sets.
I'm hoping WOTC learns this lesson and delivers a full playable game with the Essentials box. Not everyone wants or needs a set of 300+ pagecount encyclopedias just to sit down and play a roleplaying game.
Celebrim
Legend
Oh bollocks. How can I resist bait like that. I wasn't going to get involved, but oh well.
304 pages. I may be having trouble with the math, but I believe that's not less than 300 pages.
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